Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Arielle]

My hatchery New Hampshires and Barred Rocks are laying very well (about 90% since they started laying around 5 to 5.5 months - they are 7.5 mo. now). I lost one NH pullet to unknown cause soon after she started laying, but otherwise they all seem hearty and healthy. What is it about heritage birds that makes them so much better. Everyone seems to agree on that, I just wonder. Is it production? Size? Health? Longevity? All of these things?

IMO . . . .

There is a chicken for every situation.

THe point of this thread is to support the birds that are generally regarded as dual purpose breeds developed long ago , and fell out of favor with the advent of the commercial strains. Many still breed these birds to the SOP and enjoy taking the birds to shows.

For me, I expect the birds to put meat and eggs on the table first.

I started with hatchery stock and still have some. My silver laced wyandottes are not as perfect in the feathering as those I have seen at shows. And the birds at the shows are usually meatier and larger than the hatchery stock based on comparing my hatchery birds to those at the shows. Certainly TheDragonLAdy's Buff ORpingtons dwarf my BO.

I also suspect that high productin is important to the sucess of hatcheries and as such egg production rates are kept up.

Longevitiy could be very different based on selection for this.

Just a few points to consider. Some talented breeders combine both show stock and hatchery stock as a starting point. Other people start with hatchery stock and work from there.

What I had noticed in my hatchery stock ( Meyers and Mcmurray) is that the body size is less than SOP but are good layers compared tot he breed specs. Because I wanted meat birds, I had to look hard to find a very well muscled bird.

Hope this helps; others will have different opinions and often better explanations.

 

[Lacy Blues]

What I had noticed in my hatchery stock ( Meyers and Mcmurray) is that the body size is less than SOP but are good layers compared tot he breed specs. Because I wanted meat birds, I had to look hard to find a very well muscled bird.

This is because hatcheries will cross in leghorns to increase the number of eggs these "dual purpose" birds lay. It's also the reason its hard to find one that is well muscled.

Dual purpose birds are just that... middle of the road. They give eggs and they give meat, probably not exceptional amounts of either one. If you want mostly eggs, you should buy a leghorn, if you want mostly meat, you should buy cornish.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
I think the improvement is simple selection. Keeping a smaller bird and push for higher egg production. I have heard the idea that leghorn has been crossed into everything but I have yet to read of any solid proof. A good theory though.

 

[debp]

Well, I want my chickens mostly for eggs, but I wasn't sure I would like the leghorn temperament, so I got a mix of RCBL, NH and Barred Rocks. Turns out I like all of these breeds, but so far the RCBL are laying at 60% compared to 90% for the brown egg layers - and, of course, the dual-purpose are generally more calm. I am attracted to heritage breeds, as opposed to newer egg-laying crosses for both tangible and intangible reasons. Are the hatchery heritage breeds really more like a production bird - say, a "Production Red" than a true New Hampshire? What I love about the New Hampshires was how fast they feathered out. I really like the Barred Rocks as hens, but they were SO uneven in their maturation.

From what you are saying, Arrielle, I'm wondering if I might not just work with hatchery stock, selecting for things like health and reasonably good egg production, and maybe try to get a true heritage rooster at some point to improve the birds I have. I, too, thought I'd want dual purpose for meat, but I got straight run and found that the 7 roosters were causing problems (biggest chasing the others away - way away) by the time they were 4 months old, and I ended up butchering some pretty scrawny birds. Unless I want the birds for meat, I'm not sure that the cost of true heritage breeds is worth it for me, especially if egg production is lower. Yet, I've heard from several on this and another forum, about how different the true heritage birds are from hatchery. But, it sounds like it might be mostly SOP and size that is superior.

 

[Arielle]

Well, I want my chickens mostly for eggs, but I wasn't sure I would like the leghorn temperament, so I got a mix of RCBL, NH and Barred Rocks. Turns out I like all of these breeds, but so far the RCBL are laying at 60% compared to 90% for the brown egg layers - and, of course, the dual-purpose are generally more calm. I am attracted to heritage breeds, as opposed to newer egg-laying crosses for both tangible and intangible reasons. Are the hatchery heritage breeds really more like a production bird - say, a "Production Red" than a true New Hampshire? What I love about the New Hampshires was how fast they feathered out. I really like the Barred Rocks as hens, but they were SO uneven in their maturation.

From what you are saying, Arrielle, I'm wondering if I might not just work with hatchery stock, selecting for things like health and reasonably good egg production, and maybe try to get a true heritage rooster at some point to improve the birds I have. I, too, thought I'd want dual purpose for meat, but I got straight run and found that the 7 roosters were causing problems (biggest chasing the others away - way away) by the time they were 4 months old, and I ended up butchering some pretty scrawny birds. Unless I want the birds for meat, I'm not sure that the cost of true heritage breeds is worth it for me, especially if egg production is lower. Yet, I've heard from several on this and another forum, about how different the true heritage birds are from hatchery. But, it sounds like it might be mostly SOP and size that is superior.

If I am understanding you correctly you are intrerested in egg production right?? THen look at the RIR, and the leghorn. THeose are the first two off the top of my head that will be good , very good layers in a heritage stock. DO ask questions of the breeders as to laying ability . THat is a fair question. Bob Blosl was a great supporter of the RIR and I rmember him talking aobut an egg a day like clock work; DOn Schrider raises brown leghorns and I bet they are great layers as they should be. ( He reinvigorated the buckeyes as meat birds in the ABLC project.)

What I didnt mention is that hatchery birds are kept awayfrom the exposure to any diseases and I do have a concern that they are not as hardy as the birds that live the life that I expect which possible and likely exposures to the wild birds. I have had wild turkeys come right into my yard and walk around as well as the ones further in the woods that visit with my turkeys cooped out there. Others can explain this better I'm sure. BUt I really do think the hatchery birds maynot be as hardy as those under occassional pressure. My great uncle was a great racing pigeon racer. His birds won enough to pay for all their feed. He started raising them when he was 16 and had those birds til the day he died, well i nto his eighties. HE said he didnt keep a sick bird; which meant he didnt treat it either. SOme folks here joke about keeping a sharpened ax handy-- a good lesson to learn there.

 

[desertmarcy]

Zanna and Wisher1000,
Thanks for the lead and advice. I will start exploring the options. If anyone does know of a closer breeder, I'd be happy to hear about it. I couldn't find any in a google search and I don't know about Colorado (or NM or UT) poultry shows.

If you are in for a road trip, I'm about a day and a half from you. I have a group of eight pure German line New Hampshire hens and no male to breed to them due to a series of unfortunate problems. I'm finding I can't work with as many breeds as I had anyway, so haven't tried to find a replacement male and therefore these hens are for sale.

 

[debp]

Thanks, I"ll send you a personal message desertMarcy.

 

[debp]

I have not given up on Brown Leghorns, especially if I could find nice rose-combed birds. They are beautiful, and I wouldn't worry about their combs as much in our winter. I probably should consider RIR, but do they feather out as fast as NH? I think I was hoping to support less common heritage breeds, but since I got mine, I've gotten the impression that the hatchery versions are not the real thing and getting them may not be doing anything to support the breed. This is very helpful in thinking this through. If my purpose is a good healthy egg laying flock, then why am I not looking at the heritage egg layers?

 

[Arielle]

I have not given up on Brown Leghorns, especially if I could find nice rose-combed birds. They are beautiful, and I wouldn't worry about their combs as much in our winter. I probably should consider RIR, but do they feather out as fast as NH? I think I was hoping to support less common heritage breeds, but since I got mine, I've gotten the impression that the hatchery versions are not the real thing and getting them may not be doing anything to support the breed. This is very helpful in thinking this through. If my purpose is a good healthy egg laying flock, then why am I not looking at the heritage egg layers?

Don has brown leghorns, though I dont know the comb. If he doesnt have what you want I would trust him to send you in the right direction. He works tirelessly to support new people getting into chickens. ANd helps after you are esablished too. PM me if you are interested, and I will look up his email for you.

 

[3riverschick]

Don has brown leghorns, though I dont know the comb. If he doesnt have what you want I would trust him to send you in the right direction. He works tirelessly to support new people getting into chickens. ANd helps after you are esablished too. PM me if you are interested, and I will look up his email for you.

Does Walt Leonard ( fowlman01 )have rosecomb Brown Leghorns? I know he has some kind of rosecomb poultry.
Best,
Karen