Horse Gossip Thread

[michickenwrangler]

Good news! Good news!

Awards are posted for GLDRA and Izz and I got high-point half-Arab for the state of Michigan!

Izzie's registered name is Party Party

http://www.gldrami.org/8.html

I love my old gray mare!

 

[Celtic Hill]

 

[welsummerchicks]

I wasn't responding to your post, except for responding to the comments on 'high frame', 'low frame', 'consistent', and 'frame'. Then I just started rambling.

'On the bit' has very, very little to nothing, to do with head position. That is not what on the bit is. It won't happen until about third level in any case.

"Well, she and my paint...came back glowing...the trainer said that her horse was capable of doing Second Level."

Someone might need to slow down and think about what the trainer said.

The trainer said the horse was 'capable of doing second level' - he didn't say WHEN. He didn't say 'now'. 'Capable' means 'some day' - that conformation and gait wise, he can someday do that work if someone puts in (an awful lot of continuous) effort.

What should they show at now or in a year? Based on your description of what he's doing now, he has nothing of first level, let alone 2nd.

"So what do you call it then if it's not on the bit"

On the bit is not a head position. It is not a synonym for 'frame' or 'head set'. It is something completely different. It has little to nothing to do with head and neck position.

"or frame or headset?"

'Frame' and 'head set' are terms you should be running the other direction from if you want to do or understand dressage.

"Just to refresh my memory and in my own defense"

You don't ever, ever need to say 'in my own defense' in a discussion with ME, kiddo. We're just talking here. You think (and say) whatever you want. I never said you needed to agree with me - I'm just saying what I've been taught and what I think.

"I just skimmed through a dressage article from 2004 Arabian Horse (official registry publication not Arabian Horse Times or World)"

I think try going for one of the old traditional books on the subject.

" and while it does not mention headset, they do talk about "frame" as in artificial frame and classical frame"

as I said before, the minute one starts trying to think about 'head set' and 'head position' and 'frame', one is going to get totally messed up.

'On the bit' is a quality of how the horse responds to the aids, not a position of the head and neck.

At the lower levels, the horse won't be 'on the bit' for a very long time, no matter WHAT position you try to put his head in. It just does not work that way.

"Now from the trainers I've worked with and articles I've read, I've been told to resist putting my horse into the frame I used to ride in Arab hunter pleasure and horses' frames as they develop are capable of greater collection and can later achieve a more classical frame."

I don't understand that statement.

As I stated up there earlier, anyone who starts thinking about getting their horse's head and neck into a given position, that THAT is what 'on the bit' is, they're going to run into a lot of trouble.

"And the rider I was talking about can already extend and collect her horse's stride, both can turn on the haunches, they do flying changes, he halts squarely, she's been working quite well on 20m circles and he's developing the bend he needs. I see no reason why she wouldn't be capable of doing First Level after her first year."

I didn't catch where you said 'after her first year'. I thought you meant showing right now.

Do you know what's required in the 1st level test? Nothing that you list above. Counter canter (which falls apart if the horse was taught 'auto', or hunter style changes), leg yields, medium and working gaits, a lot of difficult figures, 10 m circles...first level is not really easy, especially coming in from another riding sport.

The things you are listing that the horse does, it depends on if they're done correctly or not, of course.

But in any case, the description above(the items listed that she does) doesn't make any sense ,and wouldn't prepare a horse for first level correctly, or second. The horse is doing extended gaits before she has the bend she needs?

Ditto with flying changes and turn on the haunches. That doesn't make sense.

Changes before straightening work? Doesn't make sense.

A lot of other stuff is also missing from the list, but I'm starting to get tired.

At the very least, you can't argue with "consistent."

That's not even a hard one. 'Consistent' doesn't appear anywhere in any legit dressage glossary of terms.

'Consistent' meaning the horse is staying in the same head/neck position? The problem is, it is not supposed to stay in the same position, in schooling or in competition.

"I use Frame and Self Carriage to pretty much mean the same thing"

They aren't the same thing.

'Frame' again. I can't win fer losin'.

Self carriage does not develop until around third level, and means the horse can push himself to the bridle with a lot of impulsion and start to sit and carry his weight with his back end (that has been getting body building exercises for 3 or more years now), but not RELY on the rider to support him with the reins. It does NOT mean the reins are loose or looped.

 

[michickenwrangler]

CR who has the Paint has competed in reining with him and so has never schooled a 20m circle as a 20m circle knowing what it was. The figure 8s in reining aren't quite as circular--a little more teardrop shaped.

This gelding and rider have been to Pinto World for stock type hunter pleasure and hunter equitation but, again, she's been bored with it. She does the local shows too and has done the reining patterns although we could argue the quality of judging and other reining competitors at small local shows. She has trained with a reining trainer down near Freeland. Though reining has been compared to "western dressage" there are many differences and are consistent with what is expected of a reining horse.

The TWH trainer at the barn told her to just let the reins loose and urge him to move out and he strode out and his whole frame/body did lengthen out and he seemed to enjoy it.

Yes, you have years more experience with dressage than I do, but I have competed at First Level Test 1 and I am familiar with that test. My bay mare and I were scoring consistently in the mid 60s so we tried First test 1 at a schooling show. We didn't do well because friend with black and white paint was there with her horse and the two of them spent both of their tests neighing to one another.

Also, I hadn't ridden her much that winter as a junior rider was conditioning her for endurance so she wasn't schooled enough in dressage style riding to really be competitive. Although at that show we actually did better in First 1 than Training 4!

That was th last dressage show I competed in (March '08) although DD did do two schooling shows in dressage leadline and a walk-only test respectively. DD has shown more interest in distance riding than dressage, but we'll see what happens.

Now, for me and with my past trainers, I use the term frame to differentiate from "on the bit." Frame to me just means what shape the horse is in when it's moving.

While I have competed at dressage in high school a few times but that was when they first offered them at Arab breed shows and it was only at Training Level test 1. Dressage for me isn't a passion but more like a tool, a complement to distance riding. I just take one or two lessons a year to keep myself tuned up. I only got into it later because the horse I had bought to be a second horse for distance riding didn't particularly like long distance fast-paced trail rides. She was very happy doing patterns in a ring so I began schooling her more for dressage and she liked it and did well at Training Level. The family I sold her to didn't have much interest in dressage but because the horse had both trail and show experience, they thought she's be a great horse for their daughter and she was.

That being said, I would much rather do another dressage show than small local show.

*******
Consistent- while it may not be in the glossary for dressage, I'm sure most judges would rather see a horse who maybe doesn't do whatever the head/neck/body is supposed to do but at least is consistent at it rather than a horse who alternates between self-carriage and stargazing. I'm pretty sure I've seen consistent bend somewhere on my tests

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a dressage horse SUPPOSED to be CONSISTENT? Or is inconsistency one of the new collective marks?

 

[EweSheep]

Congrats, Mic!!!!!!!!1

 

[Celtic Hill]

"I use Frame and Self Carriage to pretty much mean the same thing"

They aren't the same thing.

'Frame' again. I can't win fer losin'.

Self carriage does not develop until around third level, and means the horse can push himself to the bridle with a lot of impulsion and start to sit and carry his weight with his back end (that has been getting body building exercises for 3 or more years now), but not RELY on the rider to support him with the reins. It does NOT mean the reins are loose or looped.

Okay, Frame, Self Carriage, Headset, they are all terms of the Trade. They mean different things to each person. In the end what all of them are referring to is a horse that is active from it's hind end driving forward and controlled by the rides hand. Like you said "The horse can push himself to the bridle with a lot of impulsion and start to sit and carry his weight on his back end) In the end that is what ll those terms should mean.

I think were are all here to discuss horses and the horse world, no one needs to be mean or rude. Sorry if we don't know everything like you do but please find a nicer/kinder way. We are all here (posting on this thread) because we love horses and are just discussing them. Some of us are not all dressage riders and come from different training backgrounds so PLEASE be a little more considerate when responding to posts.​

 

[michickenwrangler]

Quote:
Okay, Frame, Self Carriage, Headset, they are all terms of the Trade. They mean different things to each person. In the end what all of them are referring to is a horse that is active from it's hind end driving forward and controlled by the rides hand. Like you said "The horse can push himself to the bridle with a lot of impulsion and start to sit and carry his weight on his back end) In the end that is what ll those terms should mean.

I think were are all here to discuss horses and the horse world, no one needs to be mean or rude. Sorry if we don't know everything like you do but please find a nicer/kinder way. We are all here (posting on this thread) because we love horses and are just discussing them. Some of us are not all dressage riders and come from different training backgrounds so PLEASE be a little more considerate when responding to posts.

What she said.

So what exactly do you FEI riders call this horse-reaching-into-bridle-while-pushing-with-hindquarters-and-contact-with-reins? I can probably pronounce whatever German/French term it is. I'm married to a German and I can speak Spanish and understand most Latin-based languages.

I was trying to tell a story of a western pleasure rider who found the sport boring and was moving onto dressage and Janelle Stevens (who rides at Intermediare I and probably higher, I just know she rode it at Dressage by the Bay) thought the horse and rider had potential. I was trying to brag about one of my riding buddies.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Okay, Frame, Self Carriage, Headset, they are all terms of the Trade. They mean different things to each person. In the end what all of them are referring to is a horse that is active from it's hind end driving forward and controlled by the rides hand. Like you said "The horse can push himself to the bridle with a lot of impulsion and start to sit and carry his weight on his back end) In the end that is what ll those terms should mean.

I think were are all here to discuss horses and the horse world, no one needs to be mean or rude. Sorry if we don't know everything like you do but please find a nicer/kinder way. We are all here (posting on this thread) because we love horses and are just discussing them. Some of us are not all dressage riders and come from different training backgrounds so PLEASE be a little more considerate when responding to posts.

What she said.

So what exactly do you FEI riders call this horse-reaching-into-bridle-while-pushing-with-hindquarters-and-contact-with-reins? I can probably pronounce whatever German/French term it is. I'm married to a German and I can speak Spanish and understand most Latin-based languages.

I was trying to tell a story of a western pleasure rider who found the sport boring and was moving onto dressage and Janelle Stevens (who rides at Intermediare I and probably higher, I just know she rode it at Dressage by the Bay) thought the horse and rider had potential. I was trying to brag about one of my riding buddies.

* He

Hyperflexion or Rulkur? lol, i pronounce it ROOL-KER.

 

[michickenwrangler]

Quote:
Now, now, you're only supposed to capitalize the syllable that the stress is on. Is it ROOL-ker or rool-KER ?

In most Indo-European languages (Greek being an exception) the stress usually goes on the second to last syllable. Yet in Spanish and some other languages, if the last letter is an R, then the stress goes on the last syllable.

Now, so this is in print,

Judge Inez Propfe-Credo "S" judge and "I" judge FEI and member of 1964 and 1968 Canadian Olympic Dressage team wrote "above the bit" on one of my training level tests in May 2006.

 

[welsummerchicks]

First, that is great about your award.

"is inconsistency in the collective marks"

Aw...now you're just being snotty.

I am saying what I think, I never suggested you had to agree...or insult.

Why don't you post your definition of each term we've been going around in circles about. Frame, head set, on the bit, consistent, etc.