Horse Gossip Thread

[welsummerchicks]

Okay, Frame, Self Carriage, Headset, they are all terms of the Trade. They mean different things to each person.

--They sure seem to mean very different things.

In the end what all of them are referring to is a horse that is active from it's hind end driving forward and controlled by the rides hand.

--they don't all mean that to me.

Like you said "The horse can push himself to the bridle with a lot of impulsion and start to sit and carry his weight on his back end) In the end that is what ll those terms should mean.

--That was part of what I said was the defintion for self carriage, but each one of these words means something different and separate - to me anyhow, frame does not equal self carriage - different but related. Everything in dressage is related.

---At lower levels, he is developing thrusting power, is still on the forehand, isn't very straight, hasn't had his hind legs strengthened, so he isn't in self carriage...yet.

--In general, if you start a discussion like this, you'll find not a few dressage guys are uncomfortable with the terms 'head set' and 'frame', because they are used so often in other riding styles, to mean something that does not work out well in dressage. That isn't unusual.

I think were are all here to discuss horses and the horse world.....

---Disagreeing isn't rude. I don't feel like I have to agree with Mi or her with me, but I would like to be able to understand what she means.

-- Tthe problem with the terms 'head set' and 'frame' are very, very old ones. For some time, frankly I did not understand the problem with the words, but it was explained to me, and now I agree.

So what exactly do you FEI riders call this....German/French term it is....

--There are familiar words in English. If a horse reaches for the bridle with active hind quarters, um... it's called reaching for the bridle with active HQ

I was trying to tell a story...I was trying to brag about one of my riding buddies.

--I didn't think that was the point of bringing that up.

-- Janelle said the horse was capable to do second level. That's nice.

--Thats the kind of thing a trainer would say, it be where she thinks the horse will top out. Most trainers would say it the way she did, and be cautious about saying exactly how fast any horse would progress, because it depends on so many things.

--Some trainers want to have a big say in when students show each level...others let the students show at whatever level they want.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
That's what im saying! Is that they frame might mean something totally different to you but to someone else it could be another thing. It's just a crappy word all together, but it is used. We have a problem here in the US where trainers and riders see the "standard" and do what ever it takes to make the horse *look* like it, but we forget what making a horse canter with it's head on the ground, four beat, ect will do to the horse in the end. *if* every rider started out learning dressage, understanding the concepts of collection, ect, we would have more skilled horses that will last longer. Unfortuently dressage people "Look Like" they are stuck up, snotty, rich people, and i guess people don't want to deal with that (but hunter people arent????)

 

[michickenwrangler]

Quote:
So I guess the official term is reaching-for-the-bit-with-actively-thrusting-hindquarters. Seems a bit unwieldy to me. A 5 letter word like frame is much nicer. And to me, frame is different from "on the bit" or "headset."

Arabian Horse Magazine Aug/Sept 2006 uses the word carriage quite frequently in their dressage/sport horse article. "A lower level dressage horse would not be expected to be as well engaged as an upper level horse, so the balance of a lower level horse will be more horizontal than an upper level horse." Article written by Dr. Gail Hoff-Carmona of California, USEF (S) Dressage Judge and (R) Dressage Sport Horse Breeding Judge.

And yes, we were talking about western pleasure. CR got bored with western pleasure and open shows, decided to try dressage. Unsure of herself but had others encouraging her to challenge herself.

Consistent: 2. constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.: a consistent opponent.

Would you want a dressage horse/rider team that doesn't maintain consistent rhythm and tempo? Should they not maintain consistentcy with relaxation, submission, impulsion?

Yes, WC, you are older and wiser and more experienced than I am and perhaps I am little more than an armchair dressage rider (especially since I usually school in an endurance saddle) but these are the terms I have heard from the trainers I have worked with: Teri Cox from Frankenmuth, Tommy Siegler from Mio/Ft. Meyers and Barb Reis from (town I can't remember the name of, but she does dressage with Paints). So maybe these trainers sensed I wasn't worthy of the true dressage lingo and decided to dumb it down for me and Olympian Mrs. Propfe-Credo found it unwieldy to write horse-not-accepting-contact-with-bit-while-thrusting-with-hindquarters-while-transitioning-upward-into-a-working-canter-before-going-into-a-20m-circle when the actual test was going on.

Thank you for the congrats about my award.

Again, the goal for me with my gray mare is not to do anything resembling a dressage test, but I do school her on circles of various sizes to built suppleness and agility. She's developed PLENTY of thrust with her hindquarters and I usually ride her on a fairly loose rein. All I want her to do is stretch down and out to lift her back for the long haul. The trainers I've worked with all call that frame. I see the word crop up in articles. Yes, these articles are not written in dressage today, but dressage is the fastest growing sport among Arabs and there is usually a dressage article or two in every bi-monthly issue.

I'm sorry if any us of offend your FEI sensibilities and jargon. I don't ride at that level and most of us here will never. Please be tolerant of us peasants who "plug along" on non-warmbloods and corss-train our distance horses.

 

[BobwhiteQuailLover]

How do you guys condition for endurence competition?

 

[welsummerchicks]

Thanks, that was what I was trying to get to.

Are dressage people 'rich and snotty'? I never thought so, not overall, not if they stay with it, because if you have money, you sure will have a lot less of it by then, LOL. Snotty? Not for long. Just trying to do this sport will beat it out of them pretty quick.

Passionate? Exacting with terminology, the training scale, methods? OH YEAH, LOL! But for very good reason. And I think people usually don't understand what they're saying or what they are getting at, and assume they're being rude when they're not.

There are always some people in every riding style, that seem stuck up. For some, riding is a status symbol to brag about, but often those people are just really scared and are trying desperately to look good to 'the world', they're so tense they can't ever learn or progress. It's sad to watch them and they exude a lot of negative energy that can pull a person down. But...many 'stuck up' people aren't stuck up at all, or snobby. I find often people start calling that particular name when they don't understand what's really happening.

Personally, I always found the majority of people in any type of riding, to be a lot of fun, very entertaining, and very, very opinionated! But that's what makes it fun.

I feel like, if I look at the people who are really into dressage for the long haul, if they really have 'paid their dues', they are usually pretty incredible people. And the only problem they have is that they are a little bit too truthful about what it's really about, which most people definitely, do not want to hear.

 

[michickenwrangler]

Again, I've always found dressage riders to be extremely nice and helpful. Dressage shows are so much more laid back than arena shows. I think because so much of the sport is competing against yourself and trying to better yourself.

 

[michickenwrangler]

Quote:
Depends on the distance you are going, how old your horse is and how much they have competed in the past.

To start a young horse, you would do LSD--long slow distance conditioning. Walking, walking and more walking. Start off with easy 1/2 or so trail rides and build up to 1 hour. Once your horse is walking for an hour over varied terrain, you can start doing short trots on good footing. Gradually build up the trot until the horse can trot for 15 minutes without stopping. By now, you should be ready to ride for 1 1/2 hours at a walk. Start adding some hill work. If your terrain isn't very hilly, find a hill and go up and down. Depending on the size and steepness of the hill, 3-5 times going up is adequate.

By the time you build up to 2 hours walking, you can start do interval training. Cantering in stretches to get the horse's heart rate up, then walk until the heart rate returns to normal. Canter for the heart rate to go up, then walk again. If you plan to eventually compete in 50 mile rides or longer, invest in a heart-rate monitor to get your horse into "target heart range." If you only plan on rider shorter distances, it would be nice but not necessary. I don't use one, I use Izzie's breathing as a guide.

Onc you start doing interval training and your horse has been doing hill work for a few weeks and your horse can walk 3 hours and trot for about 20 minutes without stopping, you would be ready for a novice ride, 12-15 miles.

After your novice ride, give the horse 2 days off and monitor for lameness and fatigue. If the horse is good, then the rest of that week take it easy but after that you can resume where you left off.

A horse can do a 25 mile ride when it can walk for about 4 hours and trot for 1/2 hour without stopping.

Now, that you've done a 25 mile ride, do you want to stay in this distance or go further? If you wish to go further, keep building the horse up. If not, you can "take it easy" and stay at this distance.

When you first start conditioning, riding 3 days a week is plenty with one of those days being a long slow trail ride, the other days schooling in an arena. You should never ride more than 5 days per week otherwise you'll have a lame horse, it'll be too much and a horse needs to rest too. Once you've done a 25 mile ride and you want to stay at that distance, you only need to keep the horse in shape, not get it in shape, so riding 3-4 days a week with a long trail ride one day, one day of schooling and two days of shorter trail rides is fine.

Now footing and terrain. Bobwhite, you're in WI, right? The Upper Midwest is *blessed* with lots of deep sand. Pros- great for conditioning, low impact and good on joints and hooves and when riders from out west come to Michigan, their horses aren't used to it

Cons- can lead to soft tissue injuries like sprains, bowed tendons and his very hard on a horse's cardiovascular system. Take care when conditioning in deep sand. Be especially careful competing in deep sand if your horse is not used to it. Terrain, if your area is flat, you'll need to overcondition your horse to compete in an area.

I've got a phone call, but if you're interested go to www.umecra.com They do rides in MI, WI, IL and MN, all nice and local to you

 

[welsummerchicks]

--why imply i view people as peasants and the rest, why try so hard to make a conflict? You're reading an awful lot into my words that does not exist and never has and never will.

So I guess the official term is reaching-for-the-bit-with-actively-thrusting-hindquarters. Seems a bit unwieldy to me. A 5 letter word like frame is much nicer. And to me, frame is different from "on the bit" or "headset."

-- I didn't mean that as a term, it was part of an explanation of how self carriage is developed. You have said 'frame' is different several times, but have never defined what it means to you, so I don't know how you feel it's different from on the bit or head set. I've asked you to define it, but you have not, which is leaving me still unable to follow what you mean.

-- the term for how a horse is supposed to hold head and neck at lower levels, is 'accepting the bit'. The discussions of 'carriage', 'frame', 'head set', these usually cause a lot of difficulty and discussion.

Arabian Horse Magazine Aug/Sept 2006 uses the word carriage quite frequently in their dressage/sport horse article. "A lower level dressage horse would not be expected to be as well engaged as an upper level horse, so the balance of a lower level horse will be more horizontal than an upper level horse." Article written by Dr. Gail Hoff-Carmona of California, USEF (S) Dressage Judge and (R) Dressage Sport Horse Breeding Judge.

-- that is pretty specific, I can agree with that statement from Dr Hoff-Carmona as a general principle, but would add, as she would if she had more space, what she has said many times before, that each horse's 'correct' lower level position is going to be somewhat different.

And yes, we were talking about western pleasure. CR got bored with western pleasure and open shows, decided to try dressage. Unsure of herself but had others encouraging her to challenge herself.

Consistent: 2. constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.: a consistent opponent.

--that is in the dictionary, it is not how different horse people use the word.

Would you want a dressage horse/rider team that doesn't maintain consistent rhythm and tempo? Should they not maintain consistentcy with relaxation, submission, impulsion?

-- No. I was using the word 'consistent' to mean what i stated, that the head and neck hold still and do not change position thru the ride or test. Consistent rhythm is, yes, overall, desirable. As I stated, 'consistent' is used in different ways by different people. Typically, in Western, it means the head does not move. Stays down. That isn't quite right for dressage. That is the point i tried to make.

--Submission is about reacting to the aids without resistance. True impulsion develops at later levels. A sort of 'baby implsion' at the lower levels is about being on the right track toward that.

Yes, WC, you are older and wiser and more experienced than I am and perhaps I am little more than an armchair dressage rider (especially since I usually school in an endurance saddle)

-- I don't see how using an endurance saddle would cause a problem for doing lower level dressage. they're generally well balanced.

but these are the terms I have heard from the trainers I have worked with: Teri Cox from Frankenmuth, Tommy Siegler from Mio/Ft. Meyers and Barb Reis from (town I can't remember the name of, but she does dressage with Paints). So maybe these trainers sensed I wasn't worthy of the true dressage lingo and decided to dumb it down for me and Olympian Mrs. Propfe-Credo found it unwieldy to write horse-not-accepting-contact-with-bit-while-thrusting-with-hindquarters-while-transitioning-upward-into-a-working-canter-before-going-into-a-20m-circle when the actual test was going on.

--I really don't understand the above. Trainers are often put in tough situations, trying to explain things, and they do the best they can, they will use whatever words they think will help the person understand.

Thank you for the congrats about my award.

Again, the goal for me with my gray mare is not to do anything resembling a dressage test, but I do school her on circles of various sizes to built suppleness and agility. She's developed PLENTY of thrust with her hindquarters and I usually ride her on a fairly loose rein. All I want her to do is stretch down and out to lift her back for the long haul. The trainers I've worked with all call that frame. I see the word crop up in articles. Yes, these articles are not written in dressage today, but dressage is the fastest growing sport among Arabs and there is usually a dressage article or two in every bi-monthly issue.

-- as I stated before, it's a word I and many dressage people wince at. Why? Because of the use of it in other riding styles, and the misunderstanding it causes. But...ALL the terms about how a dressage horse should carry himself can be confusing. 'On the bit' is often used in a very strange way, too. If someone can get the point across, and help a person ride better, they are doing the very best job a person can do.

I'm sorry if any us of offend your FEI sensibilities and jargon. I don't ride at that level and most of us here will never. Please be tolerant of us peasants who "plug along" on non-warmbloods and corss-train our distance horses.

--You don't really need to be insulting, or to try and put words into my mouth I never said, or suggest I have thoughts I've never had.

--I am the last person to be 'offended' by someone 'riding a non warmblood' or 'not riding FEI', such ideas are ridiculous to me. If you knew me at all, you wouldn't be trying to imply I am like that. I feel it is much more important that people love their horse, have a great time and meet their own goals. We were not discussing that at all and such thoughts have never, now or in the past, been something that I ever gave any brain cells over to. We were discussing principles of dressage training, and the definition of words.

 

[michickenwrangler]

I use frame to describe how a horse is carryig himself. When I use it shorthand, it means the horse is in a relaxed frame for that horse

Now please let me use the word and get on with my life

I'm getting defensive because you keep picking my posts apart and arguing with me about consistency. You're getting defensive because I keep using examples to back myself up and you feel the need to pick those apart.

OK, I'm not using the words the way you would. Just leave it at that and I'll trot fast on trails and you perfect your dressage. At least I know what I'm "talking about" for distance riding.

 

[Celtic Hill]

I move for a change of subject.