How About a Jumbo Co Op

Discussion in 'Quail' started by diggypaws, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. diggypaws

    diggypaws Out Of The Brooder

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    Apr 22, 2010
    Southern Illinois
    Fifty years ago, as a kid on the farm, I found out that if you breed a white hog to a black hog, or a fast horse to a faster horse, or cross a big tomato to a small tomato - you could work for certain results.

    All my life I've studied the genetics of animals I owned, from emus and llamas to dogs and goats, and since I work at a university and could take classes for free, I took biology and genetics classes while I was getting my accounting degree.

    So even though I don't have much experience with quail, I'm not clueless.

    The first shipment of quail eggs I got this spring had a lot of variation in size, so being a newbie, I naturally wondered if I would get jumbo birds from the jumbo eggs, so I looked it up.

    Found a great study by a Turkish university with lots of information and measurements from setting the eggs, hatch weights, then weekly records of how much growth, and how much feed consumption until they were 6 weeks old. Then they stopped the study at 6 wks, when they had all evened out at about 6 oz.

    http://veteriner.istanbul.edu.tr/vetfakdergi/yayinlar/2005-2/Makale-4.pdf

    There was another Turkish study of the results of selection and crossing. They started out with bigger birds, but the last generation in their study had males that were 290 grams, and females that were 311 grams at FIVE weeks.

    An ounce is 28.3 grams, so the males were 10.2 oz and the females were 10.99 oz. At FIVE weeks.

    I want some of those eggs.

    http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext/?doi=javaa.2009.962.970

    There was an old American study from the 60's, about inbreeding depression, that showed that brother X sister matings for 3 generations was all it took for a "complete loss of reproductive fitness", and that even in their control group of 125 randomly mating individuals, there was still some inbreeding depression.

    http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/54/2/371.pdf

    So maybe it's not that 1 pound quail aren't possible, but just that it hasn't been done yet.

    I read a post by someone on BYC that he had seen a study that you could add an ounce a year by selective breeding, and he was going to start working on that.

    I wasn't able to find any studies about that, so if someone has a link, it would be greatly appreciated.

    But if you start with eggs from 12 oz birds, you'ld gain 3 years from starting with eggs from 9 oz birds. It is sort of a way of buying time.

    A lot of inbreeding causes loss of size and vigor, so someone with 12 oz birds and a small flock might not be able to maintain the weight.

    Since there are a lot of people who aren't honest or accurate about their birds size, or they claim to have "the biggest birds around" but don't actually weigh them, we could have proof of life pictures for size and trade with people with big birds to try to get more genetic diversity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
    1 person likes this.
  2. Stellar

    Stellar The Quail Lady

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    Feb 6, 2010
    Tampa Bay
    I am with you on people not being honest on the weight of their quail. I for once know I have some hefty birds, how to prove it to someone else, show it on a scale...but then you can alter photos, and those can be misleading.
     
  3. joe125

    joe125 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Sep 20, 2010
    I don't know about other species of quail, but coturnix quail are not the most consistently sized birds.
    For the record: Other than a dog, cat, and a few guppy fish, the only other animals I raise are coturnix quail. That doesn't make me an expert. It just means I may have a bit of focus. Nothing more. Just practical knowledge.

    I'm all for the "Show me your big fat bird contest" because it's fun. What folks, fail to tell you, including me is....That the 13 oz roo, is pushing 2 years old and his total cost to me to date is around $80...so far.

    What most coturnix breeders fail to point out is....a business model. There is also the "PET" conundrum. The folks that have 50 roos and 1 hen, wonder about the feed cost, and can't send Mr. Roo and poo to camp Kenmore. I'll crunch those numbers later.

    #1. Stop reading 40+ year old university papers touting 16 oz. all white/white meat coturnix, that tastes like chicken. That's what continues, the big fat mobyquail myth.
    #2. Stop reading 40+ year old university papers!
    #3. Stop reading 40+ year old university papers!
    #4. Stop reading 40+ year old university papers!

    Welcome to quail central!
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. diggypaws

    diggypaws Out Of The Brooder

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    Apr 22, 2010
    Southern Illinois
    The American study from the 60's, about inbreeding depression, says that coturnix quail have a bigger 'genetic load' than most species.

    That is still a VITALLY important piece of information to have in any breeding program you want to have, and facts that basic don't change.

    That's one of the reasons the sizes even in the same flock are so inconsistent.

    You want a business model?

    I want to develop the largest possible consistently size bird that I can.

    On the way to that goal, I sell my second best to the people who want big birds for themselves, but aren't focused on the biggest.

    The SMALL birds that are culls from my program are perfect for someone who just wants egg producers with the smallest amount of feed consumption, poop production, and space requirements. I live close to a college campus where some people keep birds in their apartments.

    If someone just wants a pet, I'll be happy to help them find the pet that makes them happiest, whether it is mine or someone else's.

    This is still America, where people get to decide for themselves what they want from their birds and their lives.

    The "PET" conundrum is only a conundrum for the people that haven't sorted it out yet.

    If they choose to keep pets for themselves that you wouldn't have kept, maybe you should focus on your choices instead of theirs.

    [​IMG]
     
    2 people like this.
  5. diggypaws

    diggypaws Out Of The Brooder

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    Apr 22, 2010
    Southern Illinois
    Quote:There are cheaters in every endeavor, even over stupid stuff like saying they have big quail when they don't.

    If you want to keep doing business with someone, it shouldn't take long to find out if they do business honestly.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. joe125

    joe125 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Sep 20, 2010
    Quote:I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you should reread #1-#4.
    I would even go so far as to to say.....Stop with the antiquated theory. Get you some birds, from any source, and start building a practical knowledge of the species.
    After a few weeks, or years, then you can judge Me or anyone else here. If you haven't incubated, hatched, brooded, grown out, and sent a bird to freezer camp, then, please check out the chicken board!

    End transmission!
     
  7. diggypaws

    diggypaws Out Of The Brooder

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    3
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    Apr 22, 2010
    Southern Illinois
    Quote:I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you should reread #1-#4.
    I would even go so far as to to say.....Stop with the antiquated theory. Get you some birds, from any source, and start building a practical knowledge of the species.
    After a few weeks, or years, then you can judge Me or anyone else here. If you haven't incubated, hatched, brooded, grown out, and sent a bird to freezer camp, then, please check out the chicken board!

    End transmission!

    I have read EVERY word, and I HAVE incubated, hatched, brooded, grown out, hundreds of coturnix this year, and pesonally sent many birds to freezer camp and the dinner table, (mmmm), I am NOT judging you or anyone else here, just saying that there is a difference in R E S E A R C H with facts and statistics, that is very different than T H E O R Y, which is speculation, or a staring point.
     
  8. Rozzie

    Rozzie Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jul 14, 2010
    Quote:I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you should reread #1-#4.
    I would even go so far as to to say.....Stop with the antiquated theory. Get you some birds, from any source, and start building a practical knowledge of the species.
    After a few weeks, or years, then you can judge Me or anyone else here. If you haven't incubated, hatched, brooded, grown out, and sent a bird to freezer camp, then, please check out the chicken board!

    End transmission!

    Uhm, Joe? Does this mean that I'm not welcome on the quail boards? After all, I have my birds 1) for eggs and 2) for pets. I'm not interested in sending my birds to freezer camp.

    Some of us aren't interested in our birds as a business. Nor are we overly interested in the cost of their production. It's sort of like someone who keeps a single dairy goat or two around because they want fresh milk. They might not be a farmer and might not care about the cost of the fresh milk - they just want the freshest milk possible, without caring what it costs. If they can afford to do this, so be it! Good for them. Why not go for it. They might choose to spend a fortune on that milk...or they could sink it into a boat and mooring fees at the local lake. Which is the better choice? It's a matter of personal priorities.

    I have chosen to keep my roos around instead of butchering them and sending them to freezer camp. Again, it's a matter of personal choice. I choose to feed them and keep them around and watch them play (yes, they play here...they have great fun when I take them piles of fresh hay). So, a cost for me in raising birds in a way that fits my personal ethical / religious framework happens to be not taking the life of my roos. It's not just preference. It is something I cannot do within my beliefs. If that means that I end up spending $12 to produce each dozen of quail eggs, well, then that's a personal choice that I make in order to have those eggs (which, unlike chicken eggs, I can eat without having to spend hours on my knees by the porcelain goddess...) I could spend that money going to the movies like my friends. I could spend it flying to Europe. I could spend it on a sportscar like some colleagues, or living in an exclusive neighborhood. Instead, I spend it on my birds...

    Personally, I can buy a couple of bags of feed and a few bags of bedding a month for this hobby without it breaking the bank. It's not a major expense & care for the creatures only takes me a couple of hours a week (including pen cleanings). I might even still be able to afford that boat mooring (though it might have to be a canoe...)

    Please remember that we may have different reasons for keeping our birds -- or for keeping them around when others would not. However, we all want healthy birds and have in common (hopefully) a liking for these birds.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  9. pringle

    pringle Chillin' With My Peeps

    Apr 16, 2009
    Pepperell,MA
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Stellar

    Stellar The Quail Lady

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    Feb 6, 2010
    Tampa Bay
    (I still have my Stella Roo with a bum leg and missing wing living in my bedroom...he is my first coturnix EVER and my pal. He gets his ladies for birthdays and parties (and projects)..that boy has class [​IMG]
     

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