How do I breed a Silver Pied peafowl?

[crystalchik]

Ive read articles about how the silver pied is the white and pied gene working together, but i have white and pied birds and also pieds split to white breeding, and I have never come up with anything more than a pied and white.
Any hints??

 

[Henk69]

I understand that silver pied is the "white eyed" gene and the pied gene working together!

Male "white eyed" peacocks have white centered ocelli in their tail.
Both genders have a white patch on thier throat.

http://peacockgirl.tripod.com/Peafowl_Variet/Silver_Piedx.html

 

[Kev]

This may get more responses in the peafowl section?

Henk69, That's what people say.. but I have had white eyed without the white on throat or wingtips. Every white eyed with white in those areas I bought proved to be split white- 50/50 white and white eyed chicks when bred with a white....

Crystalchik, that breeding plan really concerns pied breeding.. it works for both 'regular' pied and silver pied. You will never get silver pied from using 'regular pieds' as silver pied have something extra added. It is true that all silver pieds have the white eyes and it certainly makes sense to think they are pied with "white eyed added".

However.. doesn't seem to be that simple in my experience. I bought a single silver pied male, as that's what the breeders I spoke to told me- it is pied with white eyed added and they agreed that breeding him to my white eyed split white hens and whites out of white eyeds would give me some silver pieds. Had lots of those, so decided on just a male and not a pair...

Result of 2 seasons of silver pied male over white eyed split white hens and white hens out of white eyeds? Zero silver pied. Majority of the colored offspring were "minimal pied"- not much white, and was restricted to the wings and face on majority of them. A very few had white elsewhere, like on the back or the tail area.

OK... so I spoke to breeders about those results.. suddenly they said oh no, to get silver pied have to use silver pieds...... ?? Not what they told me before. So I went ahead and bought a black shoulder silver pied pair. I "tested" this male with white eyed hens/white out of white eyed hens... got the same results as the first silver pied male, no silver pieds.

I gave daughters out of the first male to this male and did get a few silver pieds but also more of the 'minimal pied'. Overall it seems to me there is something else going on than a simple case of 'add white eye to pied= silver pied'. Whatever it is, I don't know.

 

[Henk69]

The pied gene must be homozygous for silver pied.

 

[Kev]

Quote:
So you're saying white and pied are not alleles? It seems to be considered so by many peafowl breeders, as the reason pied with the big patches of white cannot "breed true".

I have my suspicions about that but have no real proof either way... do you have information?

 

[Henk69]

What you say seems valid.
When I researched peacock genetics both white and pied where incomplete dominant genes with little white spotting in heterozygote animals.
Can not find the page I used...

Does anyone have a reference of sorts? Was it a recent publication?

I must say that 2 mutations on the same gene is not very common and I wouldn't have missed it mentioned.

So then silver pieds must be combined white/pied plus white-eyed.

 

[Henk69]

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/1/57

 

[Kev]

Ok.. yet another evidence of white and pied really being allelic, thanks for that link.

I have not seen any 'official' references(yours was the first study I'm aware of).. it is just something repeated often by peafowl breeders for quite sometime- became aware of this 20 yrs ago.

It is tempting to think it is pied/white plus white eyed. However I did not get any silver pied out of 2 different silver pied males bred to white eyed split white and white hens out of white eyed stock. The chicks would have been all homozygous for white eyed. White was already available from the hens. So.. why no silver pied?

 

[Henk69]

Bad odds with the w+ gene from the split whites.

 

[Kev]

There were white hens also homozygous for white eye with both silver pied with those males too. Ups the odds. I know those white hens were homozygous white eyed as I bred them myself out of white eyed matings. Also have bred them previously and more recently with other colors such as blue and bronze, all chicks came out white eyed, no normal blue birds resulted. Plus all colored birds from the hens & silver pied males were also white eyed.

Here were the set ups:

First silver pied male in pen with 2 White hens(homozygous for white eye) and 2 White eyed split white hens.

Result of 2 seasons: Lots of white chicks. Some colored birds with white just on flights(split birds). Many pied marked birds.. majority of those had white only on wings and up on the face/upper neck. Minority of the pied marked birds had any amount of white on back. Zero silver pied. This is more than 50 chicks total, easily. Even with real low odds.. should have had at least one silver pied bird.. Notice, I got pied marked birds.. just none of them were silver pied, not even close to it.

Second silver pied male in pen with 4 whites(homozygous white eyed) and one white eyed split white.

Similar results.. lots of white chicks.. colored birds again came out mostly minimal marked pied. Zero silver pied.. more than 50 chicks total.

This is two different silver pied males, 6 of the hens were White, over several seasons. minimum of 100 chicks total from both males. Not one silver pied. reminder- did get pied marked birds, just not silver pied.

When the pied marked daughters from the first silver pied male were put in with this second male, got white, minimal pied and a few silver pied(finally).

Why did I get them out of those daughters and none from the other hens? That's my question.. white eyed was present in all hens.. several of the hens were white.. so, what is it?

*I forgot to add, that the pied offspring also were white eyed(all colored chicks showed white eyed characteristics). They still were far from silver pied. So if the white eye is the magic stuff, how come white eyed pied?