How effective are livestock guardians? Desperate for your answers

[judyc]

I had Pyrs, but now switched to Anatolian Shepards. They have a self-cleaning, shorter coat, don't bark all night, and don't dig holes.

My Pyrs were safe with the chickens as long as the chicken were in their yard. If a chook escaped, they would catch them and lick them to death. True.

My Anatolians are safe with everthing that I have. They are people-friendly too. (I can't afford to get sued for a biting dog)

 

[dainerra]

just because it is an accepted method doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

Alpha roll theory is very simple to debunk.
1) your pup knows you aren't another dog.
2) alpha rolls in the canine world are VOLUNTARY behaviors on the part of the submissive dog.
3) if the dog is not submissive to you, you are going to have a fight on your hand that you will LOSE because even a young pup has teeth and can do a number on your face if he decides to fight back.

So, any dog that you CAN roll and discipline this way doesn't need it. Any dog that is truly dominant is going to fight for the alpha position and not submit calmly.
------------------------------------------------
I had the opportunity to meet a trainer early in my career who still had the scars on his face from an “alpha roll” gone wrong. He admitted in hindsight, he should not have attempted to “roll” this dog and put himself and the owners at risk. When you put a dog in a defensive position, they will try to fight you; it’s natural. In most cases, people receive multiple bites to the forearms upon releasing the dog and in some cases, the dog will get the chance to inflict a damaging bite to the face.

I try to explain to people that first; your dog should not fear you! Wrestling your dog to the ground and trying to overpower them is pointless and causes more damage psychologically. You simply cannot win a fight with a dog without getting hurt. A dog generally will not take on a challenge they cannot win and people should learn this too. Even the smallest dog can inflict damaging results with their teeth. Secondly, if you have to keep correcting, you’re obviously doing something wrong!
http://tarastermer.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/why-you-should-not-alpha-roll-your-dog/


Even the Monks of New Skete who made the alpha roll so popular now admit that it was never a good idea.

http://www.4pawsu.com/DebunkingDomMyth.pdf

"Take alpha rolls. The early researchers thought that the higher-ranking wolf forcibly rolled
subordinate wolves to exert his dominance. Modern studies have shown that alpha rolls are part
of an appeasement ritual offered voluntarily by the subordinate wolf, not forced by the superior.
A subordinate wolf offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf “pins” it, the
subordinate rolls over and presents his belly. There is no force. Canine behaviorist Jean
Donaldson, author of the award-winning book
The Culture Clash, says, “The truth is, there is not
one documented case of a wolf forcefully rolling another wolf to the ground. Nor is there one
case of a mother wolf (or dog) ‘scruff-shaking’ her puppies.”
A wolf would flip another wolf against its will only if he were planning to kill it. The same goes

for a mother shaking her pup by the scruff. Both are rare events."

An over the top example, but this is how an alpha roll looks to your dog:

 

[Whispering Winds]

I have two Pyrs for the Alpacas and Bella watches the fence lines and Scout stays closer to the actual Alpacas. I think he is basically lazy and knows that Belle is doing her job for him, but it works. They are wonderful dogs, sweet and good natured, but I wouldn't just turn them loose with anything until you know for sure they are ok. Someone on here has a "moat" like enclosure around their actual pasture that the dogs run but can't get in with the actual livestock, and I thought that was a GREAT idea!!!

 

[TDM]

Quote:
I seriously doubt he got scars on his face from alpha rolling a young pup.

 

[zzGypsy]

do they work? absolutely. however, they're a specific dog for a specific job, and not suited for every situation. there are breed-specific behaviors that may or may not be a problem for you - for instance, Pyrs can bond too much with people and are notorious wanderers. Kangals and Kuvas can be too independent. breeding matters, based on what you need them for... for a working dog, get a pup from working lines.

I've got my first LGD pups, a male and female from the same litter about 4 mo old. they're 1/2 pyr 1/4 anatolian shep 1/4 kangal (parents are both pyr crosses). they come from a working home with goats and chickens, not a breeder. the seller had goat losses every month until she got her first dog (the mom, pyr/anatolian) and has had no losses since (4+ years). she's got 3 now, the mom, the dad and another unrelated female, each in their own goat pasture. the mom is a no-people dog - even the owner doesn't handle this dog, and says she'd have to trap her when feeding if the dog needed vet care. the other two are people tollerant, but more attached to thier goats. the pups were xrayed for hip problems, so that shouldn't be an issue. these are, as the seller put it, "serious minded little troops".

the pups are interesting - the male is food agressive, we've been working on that. he's super sweet with very soft eyes, so it's tough not to turn him into a snuggle bug. he's really smart, and except for the food agression, I've never had to correct him more than twice on the same subject.

the female is another story. she's much more independent, and once corrected will immediately retry the same behavior over and over and over... regardless of repeated corrections. once she finally gets it, she gets it, but she wants to challenge every correction. once the correction is delivered, she'll ignore and avoid me for a while before returning to normal behavior. I think we had a breakthrough yesterday... she was getting into it with one of the young goat bucks, barking at him and trying to get a neck grip - granted the buck was butting her, but it's not acceptable behavior. I put her on her back twice, and after the second correction, she approached the buckling, then checked with me before barking or trying to get in a grip, and when I called her off, she came - woohoo! breakthrough! did the check with me thing twice, then left the buck alone after that. I think we're making real progress in the "knowing who's alpha dog" department. which is good, since I'm guessing that they'll go over 100lbs each.

the pups are in full time with mini goats right now and I started introducing them to the flock (chickens, ducks, geese, guineas, turkeys) last weekend... to be continued today. the've accepted the border collie, and currently want to eat the cats. once we're good with birds, we'll start on cats. I'm looking for appropriately sized lambs to add to the training mix.

even at 4 months they've got "big dog" barks that they deploy when strangers are on the property, or if they see something they don't recognize outside their area. the bred-in alert behavior is showing quite clearly despite they're still being puppies - head up in a characteristic way, tails high (as opposed to their normal low carriage.) their protective love-their-charges behavior is quite clear with licking on the goats, as well as putting up with an occasional butting from one of the nannys without retaliating. it's clear their working lineage is in play. Some references say they dont really come into their own until a year or 18 months, the seller said her pups seem to mature early, able to work on thier own as young as 9 months or so.

I've been told the best way to train an LGD is to put the pup in the field with a mature dog and let them learn from it. that, with a little 'respect the owner' discipline, and a correction for major errors in the field (by radio collar if needed) gets them most of what they need to know. since we don't have that option, I'm going to end up with dogs that are more accustomed to people interaction, and more people bonded, than I planned. a really independent dog, like these pup's mom, will have to be next generation, trained by these dogs once they're grown.

BTW, a good dog doesn't have to be expensive... we paid $150 for the pair. we originally looked for a proven adult, but the good working ones almost never come up for sale... the adults you see usually have some behavioral issue that's making them not sutiable for working... won't stay on the property and leave their charges unguarded, too attached to people not enough to critters, other things that make them not successful.

Re: Catahoulas: I had a beautiful pair of 100 lb Catahoula-GreatDane crosses, very smart, very cool dogs, but entirely too much prey drive for my needs. they went off to a new home with a professional ferral hog hunter in Texas, where they're now in training. I'm sure they're going to be much more successful there where they can do what they're made for, instead of my trying to get them to be something they're not wired for. We did try them in herding, one wasn't interested and the other had interest and talent, but his natural working style is suited for cattle... we've got sheep.

anyway, hope that gives you some more insight to what to expect with LGDs.

 

[eggcited2]

Quote:
I paid $100 for my LGD when she was six weeks old, but she came from a working farm and not a "reputable breeder".

I too wonder why the dogs are so old.

The lady has a working farm and she has three sets of breeder dogs. They are let run with the animals at all times, unless the female is in season and is ready to breed. Then they are kenneled just before whelping and until pups are old enough to run with mama.

She currently has a 16 year old GP that still makes it 's rounds of guarding. She has had it from a pup.

She doesn't have any young pups at this time, but does have a couple of the older ones. The economy thing hit so hard and is things are still going down hill where we live. People are not buying like they used to. Normally she doesn't have them this age.

I have seen all her GP's and they are various ages of adults, have not seen any health issues with any of them. I have been to her farm several times. She sells goat milk, and other things. Also have gotten chicks from her (she gets them directly from hatchery here in Missouri and then raises them to sell). Very good an healthy every time I've gotten them.

Hope all that helps explain what and where the pups come from.

 

[TDM]

Quote:
Sixteen? Wow!!

$350 for a partially trained six month old pyr LGD seems to be a reasonable price. Are they neutered yet?

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
most genetic diseases can't be seen. Even a dog with bad dysplasia may not show any outward symptoms, esp if the dog has worked to build up the muscle mass to compensate for bad bone structure.

GPs are prone to hip dysplasia, bloat, Glanzmann’s Thrombasthenia (a bleeding disorder), Canine Multi-focal Retinopathy (eye disorder) and other diseases. Even if a dog has none of these, it can still be a carrier. There is a simple DNA test for the both the bleeding and eye disorder, so I wouldn't consider a breeder that didn't have those and OFA at a minimum.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
I seriously doubt he got scars on his face from alpha rolling a young pup.

I know more than a few GSD people who have scars from PLAYING with younger pups (5 months old and under). There are plenty of people who have scars from bites from Chi's and my pups are bigger than that at 8 weeks old!

ETA: the main problem with alpha rolling is that you eventually have to let them up!

 

[HorseFeatherz NV]

Quote:
I wanna jump in here and give you my 2 cents also.

Even if you do get an older pup.............be sure and watch it carefully. Your chickens will need time to accept the pup and the pup will need time to accept your birds.


And under 2 years is still a pup, so watch for any chase/play/catch type games so you can refocus their energy.



I have an anatolian - she came to me as a mature adult, who had never been around birds. While not bonded to my birds, she free ranges with the birds 24/7, and protects this property with all her power and not ONE coyote has jumped the fence since she arrived!

A good LGD will change your life for the better!