How effective are livestock guardians? Desperate for your answers

[dainerra]

some puppies that could definitely leave scars on your face:

(is 5 weeks old puppy enough?)

LGDs are bred to have the power to stop predators, even packs of coyotes and roaming mtn lions. GSDs and Mals are bred to have the power to stop a full-grown man in his tracks. Believe me that any of these breeds can do a lot of damage, even as a young pup if it takes objection to being alpha rolled.

As I said, the problem isn't that people are getting their faces chewed off for alpha rolling their dogs. The problem is that 99% of dogs don't NEED it. You run into problems when you encounter a dog that really IS dominate - they aren't going to do a little fussing and squirming and then calm down.
It's kind of like using a sledgehammer to hang a picture. Sure, it will usually get the job done but it's a bit overkill.

 

[TDM]

Quote:
I believe the one poster was referring to alpha rolling a young Great Pyrenees puppy, as was I. I didn't realize that we were including non-LGD breeds such as GSD's and Chi's into the discussion.

 

[dainerra]

the same thing applies to any/all breed of dogs. As the link posted regarding LGDs says, it should only be done with young pups. Why? Probably because it's DANGEROUS. Once a pup gets more than a few months old, they are going to be too much to handle.

The idea is to have them grow up thinking "my master is stronger than me, I don't want to cross him" But what happens later if the dog decides to cross you anyway? Are you going to try to roll a 100+lb dog? Or are you going to rely on the fact that there is a strong foundation of other training to control the dog?


"Most pups will submit easily but any dog, even a young pup, has the potential to contest a claim of the alpha position. If you claim it with an older dog, you’d better be prepared to prove it in no uncertain terms or you may very well have an uncontrollable dog that will need to find an alpha human if it is to lead a productive life around humans." Even the link cited says that it can be dangerous and that even young pups might fight back.

Of course, almost every trainer has moved on from this theory. As I said, even the Monks of New Skete who popularized it no longer believe it is a valid theory. Being "alpha" has nothing to do with putting your dog in his place. It is more a factor of every day life and respect. Dogs don't go around shoving each other to the ground and forcing them to submit.

 

[TDM]

Quote:
Do you have any actual experience with any of the LGD breed dogs, and could you please post some pictures?

 

[Beekissed]

Dogs don't go around shoving each other to the ground and forcing them to submit.

Yes, actually they do. I've seen my dogs on many an occasion, when annoyed by another dog trying to dominate them, will lunge at the dog, pin it to the ground and hold onto its neck. If the offending dog lies still for awhile, my dog will let it up and go about his way. If it continues to struggle, the fight is on.

My dogs will even play in this manner and the game ends when the victor holds the other dog down for a matter of seconds. Then they get up and do it all again...I suppose this is the way they practice for real fighting.​

 

[pdbantam]

I got some chickens from a man who has all kinds of critters - llamas, sheep, goats, chickens, ponys, cows, cats... and 3 Great Pyrenees dogs. All his animals are free to go anywhere on his place (which is a catfish farm). Anyway, he said he is NOT bothered by predators. Where we live, we have plenty of them. He said he's seen the dogs kill coyotes. They are awesome dogs.

 

[jenkassai]

Quote:
Mixed breeds are only as healthy as their purebred parents. Hybrid vigor doesnt occur in the true sense in dogs because their DNA is so similar among breeds. Thus, if the cross is of two dogs who have the same health probs, the pups will get those issues. For example, labs and german sheps both have very high rates of hip dysplasia, so the chance of a lab and a shep with hip dysplasia meeting in an alley is pretty high, so many lab/sheps have hip dysplasia.
Catahoulas are pretty free of health issues, so the chance of doubling up on bad genes is low in that breed.
That said, I would never BUY a dog that was a cross simply b/c its irresponsible to make them, and i wont reward someone for being irresponsible. I would rescue one if I were going to take that chnace though.
I feel the same about discount purebreds. If you only want to spend $350, go to a rescue and get one that probably came from that lousy breeder in the beginning. Give it a home, and dont encourage the lousy breeders to breed more dogs.

Final caution about cross breds - if you do get one, I strongly suggest you do not get one that is a cross of breeds with varying purposes. LGD/herding dogs are polar opposites and you never know how DNA will roll the dice. it may look pyr, but have a high prey drive, etc.

Oh, and before everyone jumps me with "any dog can be an LGD" and examples of their tucktail terriers and flat footed booby hounds that are fabulous with their chickens, i will say yes, their are individuals within any breed that CAN be good with livestock, poultry etc. Just as there are individuals within any breed that do not do the job they were intended for. There are poodles that herd, and goldens that do NOT retrieve. BUT, you will be most likely to be successful if you select a breed that was designed for the prupose you have in mind. Just as you do not hire a mechanic to design a house for you, you hire an architect.

Eloquently and excellently stated!!!!

 

[remuda1]

Quote:
I believe the one poster was referring to alpha rolling a young Great Pyrenees puppy, as was I. I didn't realize that we were including non-LGD breeds such as GSD's and Chi's into the discussion.

I think I first brought up the take down method and yes..... As I said in my original post, they were puppies and I stressed that the disciPline needed to happen at a YOUNG age since they grow quickly and a 120 pound dog is much more difficult than a 30 pound puppy. I respect the opinions of all of the posters here. I'm not saying the alpha roll is the ONLY way, just saying that it IS what worked for me. I had tried NO, LEAVE IT, all of the other catch phrases to get the pups to mind..... They just looked at me with basically blank expressions and continued whatever undesirable behaviors they were doing. Then one day, purely out of frustration, I barked at both of them.... They IMMEDIATELY stopped what they were doing and I had thier FULL attention and they assumed a submissive posture. I still bark at them when I need to, which is very seldom these days, and it still works beautifully. They had no idea what I expected from them as far as thier behavior prior to using these two tools.

May not work for everyone, but it did for me. No one method will work for every dog or human every time. Find what works for you in YOUR situation and you and your dogs will be happier for it.

To BeeKissed, I witness the same behavior in my dogs on a regular basis as well. Here are Sophie (badger faced) and Penny. They don't look or seem traumatized to me????

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
I believe the one poster was referring to alpha rolling a young Great Pyrenees puppy, as was I. I didn't realize that we were including non-LGD breeds such as GSD's and Chi's into the discussion.

LOL!! Dogs are dogs, and any puppy can scar someone. Be it a .75lb Chihuahua or a 25lb LGD breed. All dogs are born to grow teeth and all of them have those razor sharp puppy teeth. A dog pushed into aggression will defend itself, rolling a dog to correct it only puts you in a very bad position for a serious bite. It's never a good idea. A true alpha roll isn't a huge physical confrontation between two dogs or wolves, it is an appeasement gesture from a dog/wolf that is showing submission to another. Forcing a so-called alpha roll is not fair to the dog and dangerous to you. There are other ways of correcting behavior, and ways that are more safe and effective. I will physically correct a dog, and have done so many times....but I do it in a safe manner and make sure I don't have to do it many more times

 

[zazouse]

My flocks are totally free ranged and i do not lock them at night ,so i rely on dogs to keep things safe here and they do a wonderful job.

I never leave this place except to get feed so watching after the flocks while the dogs rest in the daytime has been my role but i was taken away from home for 2 weeks when my DH became very ill and almost died 125 miles away and was keep there for surgery , i had absolutely no losses while gone and it is because i have these great guardians .

So IMO a good set of dogs will keep your flocks safe and mine do not roam anywhere but here as this property is very large and no close neighbors at all.