How to Have an Enjoyable Flock

[The Yakima Kid]

<p>Eglus are fine if you enclose them inside a secure run. My coops are installed in secured runs in order to provide more space than provided by the runs sold with most coops.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Stocking size on pasture traditionally was approximately 100 birds per acre, with half the yard in use at one time, which gave each bird around 200 square feet.</p> One acre is 43,560 square feet. This did not always discourage cannibalism.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

The suggestions for yarded fowl before debeaking was 20 square feet per bird in each yard with a two yard minimum, meaning a minimum of 40 square feet per bird. Pasture was considered better, with a minimum of one acre per 100 fowls, with half the acreage being cropped at any time to reduce the manure and parasite load.

I guess I'm done here because the 20th Century did occur, and talking with people who are disinterested in the hard work of poultry scientists is kind of discouraging.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

~~In close confinement, cannibalism, feather pecking and aggression are common among turkeys, ducks, pheasants, quail, and egg laying strains of chickens of many breeds (including both heritage breeds and modern hybrids). The tendency to cannibalism and feather pecking varies among different strains of chickens, but does not manifest itself consistently. Some flocks of the same breed may be entirely free from cannibalism, while others, under the same management, may have a serious outbreak. Mortalities mainly due to cannibalism can be up to 15% in egg laying flocks housed in aviaries,[7] straw yards,[8] and free-range systems.[9] Because egg laying strains of chickens can be kept in smaller group sizes in caged systems, cannibalism is reduced [10][11] leading to a lowered trend in mortality as compared to non-cage systems. Cannibalism among flocks is highly variable and when it is not problematic, then mortalities among production systems are similar. [10]



The method I use for trimming is to remove *only* the sharp tip of the upper beak, usually a bit less than 1/4" of the beak, and without cutting into the quick, or living portion of the beak. Note that layers in cages tend to have a lower incidence of cannibalism than hens kept in larger groups, on or off pasture. This is contrary that many would expect - but chickens do not think like people. A biddy in a group can expect to be pecked by every hen higher than she in the hierarchy; the smaller the group, the fewer to peck her. In smaller groups chickens also are more likely to recognize and know each other, which means less aggression. Traditionally flocks on pasture, yards, or floor operations were divided into groups of fifty to one hundred birds.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I'm sorry, I still don't buy it and I couldn't disagree more.
I may not be the most expert but I didn't just fall of the proverbial chicken turnip truck either.
In 60 years with as many as 15 poultry houses, coops and pens of various sizes, configurations, stocking densities (some of which I would even call close confinement - albeit not commercial level close confinement), thousands of birds made up of 30 plus breeds of chickens as well as pheasant and some water fowl, flocks consisting of 100+ white leghorns, 100 meat birds of various breeds, mixed flock of Mediterranean/Continental/English/American/Asiatic breeds all closely confined together and virtually any other combination of pastured, housed, penned and even caged way of keeping birds one can imagine - I can honestly say I've never had a case of chewed toes, cannibalism or even feather picking to the level of concern that I would even consider taking a file to a beak. It just isn't necessary.

There are a lot of people here in Missouri that have had way bigger operations than I've been involved with and I've never heard them utter a sound about beak trimming.

I've been around large and small flocks in Latin America, the Caribbean and Europe, never seen it done except commercial egg houses.

I'm also organizer of a backyard chicken meetup with 650 members, some of those people keep several chickens in some pretty tiny manufactured coops and almost always with a mixed flock. I've seen a lot of their setups either on coop tours or consulting. I moderate all the discussions and other than the occasional feather picking from close confinement or lack of protein, I've never seen a discussion of toe eating or cannibalism.

I've been teaching chicken classes at community colleges and other venues. I've never heard mention of it there either.

Beak trimming from some sources was common but only because those birds were heading for a shoulder to shoulder life of caged or open housing confinement.

 

[SunnySkies]

We had Leghorns when I was a kid, about 300 of them at any one time. We didn't trim beaks. We had no cannibalism going on. They were flighty, but no more likely to kill another bird than others.

When I worked for USDA, I was in and out of large houses quite a lot, where 5-10k birds might be living. They were not trimmed either. Practices have changed because consumers are more interested in humane treatment of their food source (when they think about it) and management practices have changed.

Sorry. I don't buy it either, and I daresay the typical backyard owner won't have trouble unless they neglect small wounds and let the chickens pick on an injured flockmate. And that could be true for any chicken that is light colored, as wounds are more obvious on light colored birds, not just white Leghorns.

Free range does not mean you do not feed. We free range 100% but the birds are given feed twice a day to fill in the gaps. Instead of worrying about nutrition, I daresay the typical suburban flock allowed to free range would find itself in trouble because of tearing up the yard looking for bugs (which provide a great deal of nutrition), bothering the neighbors by flying over the fence, and pooping on the back steps. A run limits opportunity for eating and requires more work but does save the landscape when one is not around to supervise the flock and also keeps them safe from predators, as having a livestock guard dog in a suburb would be problematic.

I feed all my birds chick starter/grower and offer calcium ad lib. They do just fine on this. A layer feed is not strictly needed if you offer calcium.

I have anywhere from 40-80 birds here at any one time and have never had any drama thanks to breeds (I have a mixed flock of various LF and bantam breeds, although my focus is on breeding Swedish Flowers), no picking, no cannibalism, no toe eating, etc.

I think you are taking science that was done in large, overcrowded commercial chicken houses and trying to apply it to a backyard flock of 6-10 birds. Completely different situations, which makes all the difference in raising poultry.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Cannibalism has been a significant problem in pastured flocks since at least the very earliest writings from the agricultural faculties. It is a heritable trait, and varies widely between breeds and even between strains of the same breed. It is not restricted to laying cages, and it is not a sudden development due to more intensive raising systems.

It would be interesting if those who are involved with many different owners were to survey them about feather pulling in their flocks and toe pecking in chicks. I surveyed owners of chickens on one list and found distinct correlations between certain breeds and cannibalistic behavior. Toe pecking was more common in Mediterraneans, while one of the brown egg laying hybrids was prevalent in the bullying and terrorism category.

Today it is a significant problem in organic free range operations. I refer you to :

http://www.organicvet.co.uk/Poultryweb/disease/feath/feath1.htm

It is interesting that on this particular website feather pecking is initially attributed to "an underlying problem with the farming system" in one line, yet many of the following research papers cited indicate that more than half of flocks have cannibalism issues, and that cannibalism appears to be an inherited trait! It seems that old beliefs remain strong even though the authors are citing research that points out clear evidence that things other than poor management or inadequate space are involved - one study even found the types of waterers used could contribute to cannibalism. One gem was the finding that ISA Browns on range were more cannibalistic than both White Leghorns and RIR/White Leghorn crosses.

~Organic/free range systems Permin and Nansen (1996) view the incidence of cannibalism, with the risk of secondary Escherichia coli infection, as a growing problem on organic farms. It is also an issue in other free range flocks. Where it is found there is usually an underlying problem with the farming system that triggers the problem (A. Bassett, pers.comm). Keeling et al, 1988 observed an outbreak of cannibalism in a free-range flock that occurred primarily in the last 8 weeks of lay. Cannibalism and pecking have also been observed in other free range flocks in England (Swarbrick, 1986). Green et al (2000) conducted an extensive postal survey of "alternative" poultry systems in the UK and showed that over 55% of respondents reported feather pecking in laying flocks.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

We had Leghorns when I was a kid, about 300 of them at any one time. We didn't trim beaks. We had no cannibalism going on. They were flighty, but no more likely to kill another bird than others.

When I worked for USDA, I was in and out of large houses quite a lot, where 5-10k birds might be living. They were not trimmed either. Practices have changed because consumers are more interested in humane treatment of their food source (when they think about it) and management practices have changed.

Sorry. I don't buy it either, and I daresay the typical backyard owner won't have trouble unless they neglect small wounds and let the chickens pick on an injured flockmate. And that could be true for any chicken that is light colored, as wounds are more obvious on light colored birds, not just white Leghorns.

Free range does not mean you do not feed. We free range 100% but the birds are given feed twice a day to fill in the gaps. Instead of worrying about nutrition, I daresay the typical suburban flock allowed to free range would find itself in trouble because of tearing up the yard looking for bugs (which provide a great deal of nutrition), bothering the neighbors by flying over the fence, and pooping on the back steps. A run limits opportunity for eating and requires more work but does save the landscape when one is not around to supervise the flock and also keeps them safe from predators, as having a livestock guard dog in a suburb would be problematic.

I feed all my birds chick starter/grower and offer calcium ad lib. They do just fine on this. A layer feed is not strictly needed if you offer calcium.

I have anywhere from 40-80 birds here at any one time and have never had any drama thanks to breeds (I have a mixed flock of various LF and bantam breeds, although my focus is on breeding Swedish Flowers), no picking, no cannibalism, no toe eating, etc.

I think you are taking science that was done in large, overcrowded commercial chicken houses and trying to apply it to a backyard flock of 6-10 birds. Completely different situations, which makes all the difference in raising poultry.

Ummmm...... one hundred pastured birds per acre is an overcrowded commercial chicken house? I'm not sure which science I reported addressed intensive management methods, so could you quote whichever post that did that in so I can understand your reference?

I think we are on the same page about how to house and feed backyard birds. I feed a complete layer feed and offer both calcium and grit ad lib. My small flock of Dominiques accompanied by the lone older Black Star can reduce the vegetable beds to rubble in less than an hour and any blueberry growing within 24" of the ground is gone long before that. B^)

 

[SunnySkies]

When you said you talked to professors at the universities, their responses are based on research applied to commercial houses. You are also referring to studies that, when you go back to read them, were done on commercial flocks, which is an entirely different beast than what the average owner has. So while you have not specifically quoted them, you are referencing commerical studies.

.

~~In close confinement, cannibalism, feather pecking and aggression are common among turkeys, ducks, pheasants, quail, and egg laying strains of chickens of many breeds (including both heritage breeds and modern hybrids). The tendency to cannibalism and feather pecking varies among different strains of chickens, but does not manifest itself consistently. Some flocks of the same breed may be entirely free from cannibalism, while others, under the same management, may have a serious outbreak. Mortalities mainly due to cannibalism can be up to 15% in egg laying flocks housed in aviaries,[7] straw yards,[8] and free-range systems.[9] Because egg laying strains of chickens can be kept in smaller group sizes in caged systems, cannibalism is reduced [10][11] leading to a lowered trend in mortality as compared to non-cage systems. Cannibalism among flocks is highly variable and when it is not problematic, then mortalities among production systems are similar. [10]

"Close confinement" does not mean what you are claiming, with 100/acre, and I'm not sure where you are getting that number now. Intensive management involves hundreds to thousands of birds in a very small space relative to the numbers. I was stunned how many hens are crammed into a "free range" space the first time I saw it with my own eyes. Close confinement in commercial terms does not mean even what typically is recommended for backyard flocks.

I personally think issues like what you are describing are multi factorial with stress (and what defines stress to a chicken and how do you determine that?) as a major factor, but they are NOT a reason to suggest someone not own a particular breed of chicken myself. What works for me and my situation might not work for you.

ETA: I do not feed layer feed. I keep roosters and chicks. Therefore for me and those in my situation, recommending a layer feed at all time is not a good idea.

 

[SunnySkies]

Cannibalism has been a significant problem in pastured flocks since at least the very earliest writings from the agricultural faculties. It is a heritable trait, and varies widely between breeds and even between strains of the same breed. It is not restricted to laying cages, and it is not a sudden development due to more intensive raising systems.

It would be interesting if those who are involved with many different owners were to survey them about feather pulling in their flocks and toe pecking in chicks. I surveyed owners of chickens on one list and found distinct correlations between certain breeds and cannibalistic behavior. Toe pecking was more common in Mediterraneans, while one of the brown egg laying hybrids was prevalent in the bullying and terrorism category.

Today it is a significant problem in organic free range operations. I refer you to :

http://www.organicvet.co.uk/Poultryweb/disease/feath/feath1.htm

It is interesting that on this particular website feather pecking is initially attributed to "an underlying problem with the farming system" in one line, yet many of the following research papers cited indicate that more than half of flocks have cannibalism issues, and that cannibalism appears to be an inherited trait! It seems that old beliefs remain strong even though the authors are citing research that points out  clear evidence that things other than poor management or inadequate space are involved - one study even found the types of waterers used could contribute to cannibalism. One gem was the finding that ISA Browns on range were more cannibalistic than both White Leghorns and RIR/White Leghorn crosses.

~Organic/free range systems Permin and Nansen (1996) view the incidence of cannibalism, with the risk of secondary Escherichia coli infection, as a growing problem on organic farms. It is also an issue in other free range flocks. Where it is found there is usually an underlying problem with the farming system that triggers the problem (A. Bassett, pers.comm). Keeling et al, 1988 observed an outbreak of cannibalism in a free-range flock that occurred primarily in the last 8 weeks of lay. Cannibalism and pecking have also been observed in other free range flocks in England (Swarbrick, 1986). Green et al (2000) conducted an extensive postal survey of "alternative" poultry systems in the UK and showed that over 55% of respondents reported feather pecking in laying flocks.

The problem with this is the term free range, when applied to commerical poultry, means nothing. There are no real standards. So Farmer A could be keeping 100 birds per acre and out all the time, but Farmer B could have 10,000 birds per acre and only let them out for an hour a day. Yet both are entitled to label their eggs as "free range" or "cage-free."

Unfortunately, too many consumers do not know that, and thus it is more common to claim one "free ranges" when in reality, the free range is anything but. It's commerical intensive husbandry practices just with a little fresh air.

The flocks referred to are not small backyard folks. They are not surveying us. They only survey owners of large flocks. Size makes a difference. There are so many factors at play that, again, I can't say don't keep X breed because of this issue. It might not be a problem for backyard owner with 6 hens and a nice big coop and plenty of scratch. To suggest someone might not want to keep a particular breed based on research coming from commercial operations does a breed a disservice.

 

[Secretlyspotted]

Whoa. That looks intense. Don't know if I could do that, even if I could dispatch a chicken myself (so far that is my husband's one and only contribution to backyard chicken keeping!) There is a big difference from humanely killing a chicken and doing something that is going to cause pain and trouble eating for a long period of time. I was kinda picturing something more like fingernail trimming! My chicks have a HUGE fenced yard (probably close to an acre), tons of hiding places, and a large coop (see avatar pic). I think I'm just gonna cross my fingers that everybody can play semi-nice.