I just can't stand it!!

[appps]

I haven't been following this as I know there are some who disagree with my point of view. I didn't realize I'd catch so much flack. For that I am sorry. 

dont be sorry. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and you weren't rude or nasty in expressing yours and I think you made it pretty clear you weren't referring to everyone who has lost birds. What I hear rather is just total frustration and have to admit have felt that too.

It's not just predators either, it's bird losses in general. I Remember going back through one posters threads after something caught my attention and for months and moths they had been posting alternately about their chickens dying of disease and about buying new birds. That is the sort of poster I took you to be referring to. Common sense says deal with your disease problem (or predator) first but instead they just keep buying and the birds keep dying and they post again and again about their losses and not realising the back story people offer advice which is too much effort for them to take and they buy more birds as a quick fix instead. I've seen the same thing with predator posts, advice is given, advice is ignored and birds die and are replaced as it's easier. Not fair to the poor birds.

 

[MeepBeep]

What have you found to be most effective in repelling predators?
What methods have you found to be useless

I personally believe that for all intents 'repelling' predators is a useless approach in itself, predators simply don't go away and almost all 'repelling' methods are very temporary and the predator is simply sitting in the waiting out of sight until it gets accustomed to the repellent... You might push/repel them away for a bit but they will return in time once they gather the courage to overcome, and for many predators that time period is measured in days/weeks not months/years...

Predators like coyotes, domestic dogs, weasels and raccoons are for all intents fully urbanized in most parts of the US, they have little or no fear of 'repellents' and if they do show some initial fear it is almost a guarantee that the fear will be erased in short as they simply get used to and start ignoring it...

Things like scents, motion activated this or that, lights, scarecrows, flashing objects, noise makers or what not simply don't work long term on many common chicken predators... People generally get a false sense of security using these devices, they install them and then because they don't experience a loss for a week or two or even a month that the problem is solved... Many miss the fact that correlation does not equate to causation... Meaning the fact you put up some blinking red lights and the coyotes has not been seen, does not mean the lights drove the coyotes away... Coyotes like many other predators hunt in a full 360° area around their home, they deliberately rotate and choose the easy hunting grounds at any given moment... All the 'repellent' does is make them shift to their next hunting ground temporarily, they will return back to the chicken buffet as they rotate through their 360° hunting pattern depleting those other areas of food and by then they will almost always be immune to the repellent that was put in place as it's now that norm...

One other thing to note, just because you are not experiencing losses does not mean you are not being hunted by the predators... Game cameras can be real eye openers on how often your coop area or yard is actually visited by predators that simply have not taken the next step to attack...

IMO the best predator protection bar none is physical fortification against entry, confinement of birds to this fortified location, a live full time active flock protection animal and/or disposal of immediate vicinity predators when possible...

 

[carlf]

I fully agree with the original poster and posted a similar thread about a month ago.

Just the other day I read a thread about a person who has lost 26 adult birds over a course of time to the same predator but made no comments on what they had done to eliminate the predatory or protect their birds.

Yes, Losing birds happens. But it should be the exception. A rare occurance.
Continuing to lose birds and doing nothing is simply sickeningly irresponsible.
If you can't protect your birds or do not have the desire to kill a predator, get out of keeping chickens.

 

[bantamrooster]

Following is based on direct observations. I can go months or years between sightings on property then they can come in very regularly for a while.

Red Fox
Hunts around the clock and appears to have an established route that consistent patrols
You can smell even when they just pass through
Will hunt with you present once it gets on the trail of a victim which can get into trouble if you have dogs
Does not respect human urine
Does not respect dog urine
May respect Coyote urine
Will not visit when Coyote pack nearby
Can be beat by well positioned hotwires
Can be beat with electrified poultry netting
Good hard chase by a dog will keep it away for months
Dogs can catch and kill them more often than you think possible
Can run fast but not faster than a dog in a straight line. Will use fences and tight turns to evade dog but two smart dog can defeat those options
Cannot out run a dog when carrying even a 3-lb chicken
May follow Great Horned Owl that knocks chickens off roost to go after birds owl ignore or even scavenge (in fall both can come in a single night with fox only minutes behind owl)
Has a hard time killing larger birds which can get into trouble if you have dogs
My games chickens as adults are almost immune to these guys except when defending offspring.
Will work pen perimters to worry a chicken into corner or edge where it will pull bird through so I will move pens together when fox working area
Digs but not when dogs present
Has yet to chew through wire like Raccoons, Oppossums and even domestic dogs are prone to do
Not all Red Foxes go after chickens. A few years back we had one that hunted for rodents within site of free-range chickens without incident. Fox from other direction not friends with first would.


Grey Fox
I have almost not experience with these although dogs did get into one a year or so ago when persimmons in fruit
Does not range as much as Red Fox


Great Horned Owl
Here comes first for rodents / rabbits with chickens being targets of opportunity
Eats head and neck plus able to do so within a couple of minutes
Will start with a 4.5-lb live weight chicken with 3 or four nights of repeated meals before small enough to carry off
Can carry at most about 2 lbs and must drag carcass in to tree to launch.
Drives larger targets off roost and grapples them on ground, often drives multiple from roost then picks one
Somehow it drives victims from perch without actually contacting them
Will go after adults but selectively harvest smaller chickens and will even pull chicks from under wings of hens.
Very predictable in terms of when visits each night.
Will follow me around as I do chores in near dark conditions
Will come in quickly when chickens disturbed
Will stare at dogs only 10 feet below but will fly when I am also present
Difficult to remove when entangled in netting (bites and strikes with talons)
Will hunt from ground
Does not respect scarecrows
Can be stopped with bird netting and seems to not even want to walk near it
Can bluff most dogs when on ground, except Scoob
Close call with dog does scare them off for weeks
Can reach chickens within 6" of a 2 x 4 welded wire panel but stopped by chicken wire unless chicken roosting tight against it
Hard to stop with hotwire actually attached to coop
Not real smart about very clean windows

Barred Owl
Targets chicks and I have never had one go after adults
Seems to come only on very dark nights when GHO's not around.
During winter eruptions of Short-eared Owls the Barred owls get stupid taking more risks hunting

So dogs, hot wire, electrified poultry wire, netting and maybe coyote urine. Anything else?
Dog and human urine and scarecrows are useless. Anything else?

 

[Don P]

You can choose to disagree on how you manage your animal husbandry, but some like to free range their animals or chickens and know the risks.
Some people just keep a small flock and don't want or can't afford to keep an outdoor flock protecting dog.
As coyotes make their rounds or other predators come, it is just a part of the cycle of life. One might as well say, why do you keep chickens knowing coyotes will keep coming to your property and you will keep killing coyotes who have a right to live and eat. You shouldn't just keep killing coyotes or raccoons etc.

That is why the govt. made a law to protect Eagles and other animals. Because farmers were killing them off too much. So now I have 14 Eagles that fly around my property often circling together and pick off the wild ducks in my natural pond. So much so I won't waste the money on buy ducks anymore. But the fact they occasionally take a chicken out free ranging when I can't be there 24/7 to watch them does not mean I have no right to fresh eggs or raising chickens,

I can kill some of the coyotes, fence against other night predators, but when they get taking free ranging in the day, that is life. I have farmer friends who have their cows taken down regularly by protected wolves. The packs have even killed 5 great Pyrenees in a night to get to the cows and the wolves are so well fed they only take the pregnant cows and only eat the calves and leave the cow. Smart predators and its $100,000 fine to kill one of them and most have radio collars on. so it is just part of the price of free ranged beef.

You might think I am a bad person because I keep small goats the coyotes can kill too. You may say to me, why don't you just keep big breed goats the coyotes won't bother as much and stop keeping those pygmies and Dwarf goats. But I have a right to do what I want just as you do.

But to me having a horse locked in a stall all day or cattle in a pen or hogs in a slaughter yard, or a dog or goat on a chain, these are cruelty to animals. But then that is just my bias and preference. So I suggest you don't get all self righteous about your preferences and let others do as they please.

Offering advice on ways that help protect is fine, but condemning others for not liking to do it the same way you do is pig headed. No offense to pigs.

Why are you so biased in favor of the chickens and not other animals that may get killed off by chicken keepers? why not say: Darn those coyote, possum, rat and raccoon killers!! They need to stop keeping chickens which they know attracts predators to their property that they just keep killing over and over.

Many people, maybe mostly PETA members and Vegans probably think this way.
Just another perspective to consider.

 

[Cherib603]

What are we supposed to say when someone comes on and posts that a predator be it dog, fox, weasel or coon got in and killed their birds AGAIN??  What are we supposed to say? 

I believe the original poster was specifically referring to coops and pens and not free ranging. There's no excuse for placing your flock in a pen where they can't get out, but leaving weak points for predators to get in and kill them. And it's upsetting for us to keep reading these posts by the same people over and over who don't seem to want to do anything to prevent it.

 

[3feathers]

Pretty much all creatures are part of the predator/prey circle. We as humans don't think about it much as we are so far at the top and don't have to do our own killing for food. Go to the store and get some pre-killed food. I care for my chickens and protect them as best I can but I also recognize they are food. I eat their eggs, their babies. I don't raise meat birds although have tried eating predator kills. I understand the "tough old bird" allegory now. I prey on them and give them protection, hopefully a decent exchange. I personally don't like killing but have no issue with doing it if I see no other alternative. I don't plan on starving and I enjoy the eggs.
My chickens free range and I believe they enjoy the freedom although I also don't think they have a mentality that goes that far in consideration. I could fence them in and their world would be reduced, would they notice or care? Probably not. Take it further and further till perfect protection means no freedom. I think it is more our perspective view of them. How do we see them? Disposable or family? Would you still raise chickens if you got no meat, no eggs, and could not sell chicks or anything? If yes then you have pets, and many others do not. People mistreat things the world over, chickens included.
I have lost a few and keep a small flock. Basically over 4 years 3 predators issues. I just lost a few to a domestic dog when I was away. It is the second time a dog has killed some over the years. I lost some to a raccoon who is the only creature that has figured out how to get into my open free range coop without being shown or trained how to get in.
Same day as the dog attack, I lost a chick to a snake. First snake loss. I actually thought it was the person taking care of them when I was away, but I put a golf ball and an egg back in it and the snake came back. And yes they do eat golf balls. I just spent 30 minutes after catching the snake pushing the golf ball back out. Some interesting pictures. Even as a predator the snake is part of nature and if I take it far enough away it won't find it's way back. So I choose that option. I am very annoyed but choose not to completely divorce myself as part of nature, rather than apart and not to kill a beneficial creature if there is a reasonable way to stop it messing with my chickens.

 

[ChickenChaser9]

If I see a predator I shoot it. I suppose I am 'lucky' there aren't any protected animals living out in my neck of the woods but that would not deter me nor altar my stance one bit if there were. Of course it is not luck at all. It is having planned to live in a place where they do not live. Regardless of how anyone else chooses to raise their livestock I am not going to in any way lessen my bird's security nor relent to some person's bleeding heart. The ecosystem is something we humans have long since removed ourselves from and I have no intention of rejoining it just to the local raccoons can dine on chicken when they are just as eager to eat out of a garbage can or anything else they come across. Humans have hunted and killed foxes for thousands of years and while I do not go out looking for them if they are snooping around then they will get dead. The OP is right to be annoyed by all the repeat posters crying about yet another casualty. Is it sad? YES! Is it tragic? OF COURSE! Is it preventable! ABSOLUTELY! Whose fault is it, the chickens? HELL NO.

 

[3feathers]

Everyone makes their choice as to how to deal with predators. I don't see killing as a first solution I see it as a last and final solution. Not everyone is a "bleeding heart" that does not shoot first. I warned a neighbor after his dog was chasing some chickens that I would shoot it if it comes to that but would prefer he contained the dog. Sometimes other solutions take more effort and people are unwilling to make that effort.

"The ecosystem is something we humans have long since removed ourselves from and I have no intention of rejoining it"

I don't understand this part of your post. You are by definition part of the ecosystem as long as you exist in it and affect it.
'a biological community of interacting organisms and their physical environment.' It is impossible to remove yourself from the ecosystem unless you leave the ecosystem (leave not die as you would still be part of it dead). You would have to go off planet.

As far as the OP, anyone starting any endeavor has a learning curve.

 

[ChickenChaser9]

Everyone makes their choice as to how to deal with predators. I don't see killing as a first solution I see it as a last and final solution. Not everyone is a "bleeding heart" that does not shoot first. I warned a neighbor after his dog was chasing some chickens that I would shoot it if it comes to that but would prefer he contained the dog. Sometimes other solutions take more effort and people are unwilling to make that effort.

"The ecosystem is something we humans have long since removed ourselves from and I have no intention of rejoining it"

I don't understand this part of your post. You are by definition part of the ecosystem as long as you exist in it and affect it.
'a biological community of interacting organisms and their physical environment.' It is impossible to remove yourself from the ecosystem unless you leave the ecosystem (leave not die as you would still be part of it dead). You would have to go off planet.

As far as the OP, anyone starting any endeavor has a learning curve.

Tis is a final solution indeed. I see no point in messing around with solutions that are not final.

If you think that a raccoon is a part of your community that is fine with me I wont argue with you. It surely is not a part of mine. I suppose you could loosely describe me killing a predator as 'organisms interacting' as well but I don't really think that is what the meaning of the phrase intends.