Oh chicken poop!!@!! I just realized this is a PRO biotic, not a PRE biotic and I can't find the edit option....too early and not enough coffee yet!!!
I think I found a miracle cure for feather picking
- Thread starter azygous
- Start date
ShakeragSusan
Songster
Thanks, Jim!
And thanks everyone else, too. This has been an interesting discussion.
And thanks everyone else, too. This has been an interesting discussion.
Holy Smoke!
I never thought this would become such a long thread with what seems to be pretty heated opinions. I will try to answer the points that were brought up as best I can.
First of all lets identify who the players are on the Forco side.
Jim Rea
Forco distributor; primarily online and to horse clients.
Do I want to sell more Forco? YES
Would I knowing put chickens at risk to sell more Forco? NO
Dave and Lynette Frank
The owners of Forco
Do they want to sell more Forco? YES
Would they knowing put chickens, or any other living thing at risk to sell more Forco? NO
Have the Frank's fed Forco to chickens and turkeys? YES
Many, thousands? I don't know but I suspect YES
Were there any mass die offs with chickens and turkeys laying
all over stinking up their ranch. NO
Did any of the birds that ate Forco die? YES They all did,
you might have bought one in the grocery store
Now, on to more serious stuff. There have been a lot of comments regarding the safety of feeding Forco, the truth of the matter is Forco has been successfully fed to thousands of horses, cows, pigs, goats, dogs, cats and birds of various kinds. Forco is not horse food, chicken food dog food or any other kind of animal food, It's Microbe food! As such it makes the digestive system of any living thing with a digestive system containing microbes of any kind more efficient. In simple terms, animals and birds that are fed Forco are better able to digest and assimilate whatever they eat.
If you are afraid it's not safe for your birds, don't buy it.
Mavrik says "Avians need a specific type of probiotic, giving a horse probiotic to avians is not a good idea." With all due respect, I suggest If you are not an avian nutritionist it is inappropriate for you to speculate about adverse affects you think Forco might have, that fly in the face of its wide use in the animal feeding world, including birds and specifically chickens.
I put my money where my mouth is by offering a 60 day money back guarantee if someone I sold Forco to doesn't think it helped their animal, or bird, all they need to do is let me know and I'll send their money back, it's unconditional. So far I have only given one lady her money back. She called up and asked for a refund, when I asked why she said the horse had died. I thought OMG and asked what the horse died of? She said cancer. I told her I didn't guarantee that Forco would cure her horses cancer, but that I would give her, her money back anyway.
FDA approval; it isn't FDA approved because it isn't required to be and would not require FDA approval if it were marketed to humans as a supplement. Which by the way it isn't. Forco is made with all human grade ingredients and it is not mixed in a FDA or USDA plant because it doesn't need to be.
Are we going to guarantee the eggs and meat from chickens fed Forco won't be harmful, no, of course not; that invites lawsuits in an already excessively litigious society.
Avi-culture-2 probably a good probiotic. Since it degrades in the bottle, as the manufacturer says on it's web site, you probably should use it before the expiration date. Since it's live cultures most of them will die in the stomach before they get to the gut. Its pretty expensive but if you think it will help, go for it.
Avi-culture-2's ingredients have an FDA GRAS ( generally regarded as safe) rating. That basically means they (the FDA) don't think the ingredients have killed anybody that they know of, at least lately. Look it up, I did. For whatever its worth, I don't know anybody or anything Forco has killed.
If I sound a little annoyed its because I am. It's really easy to over-think these things. If Forco had been killing chickens all over the place, or if people had been dying from eating eggs or meat from chickens fed with Forco you would have easily been able to find it on the internet.
It sounds to me like the recreational chicken business is a little like the recreational horse business. Everybody is an expert and they tell you if you don't do it their way your horse, or chicken, will die and it will be all your fault. I advise my clients to apply the "rule of good sense and logic" if it sounds logical and fits the evolutionary pattern of the animal it's probably ok. If it doesn't, look it up, as best you can on the internet and do whatever you believe is best for your animal, or bird.
I am trying to offer information as best I can and add a little humor. Any other concerns I would be glad to address.
Jim Rea
I never thought this would become such a long thread with what seems to be pretty heated opinions. I will try to answer the points that were brought up as best I can.
First of all lets identify who the players are on the Forco side.
Jim Rea
Forco distributor; primarily online and to horse clients.
Do I want to sell more Forco? YES
Would I knowing put chickens at risk to sell more Forco? NO
Dave and Lynette Frank
The owners of Forco
Do they want to sell more Forco? YES
Would they knowing put chickens, or any other living thing at risk to sell more Forco? NO
Have the Frank's fed Forco to chickens and turkeys? YES
Many, thousands? I don't know but I suspect YES
Were there any mass die offs with chickens and turkeys laying
all over stinking up their ranch. NO
Did any of the birds that ate Forco die? YES They all did,
you might have bought one in the grocery store
Now, on to more serious stuff. There have been a lot of comments regarding the safety of feeding Forco, the truth of the matter is Forco has been successfully fed to thousands of horses, cows, pigs, goats, dogs, cats and birds of various kinds. Forco is not horse food, chicken food dog food or any other kind of animal food, It's Microbe food! As such it makes the digestive system of any living thing with a digestive system containing microbes of any kind more efficient. In simple terms, animals and birds that are fed Forco are better able to digest and assimilate whatever they eat.
If you are afraid it's not safe for your birds, don't buy it.
Mavrik says "Avians need a specific type of probiotic, giving a horse probiotic to avians is not a good idea." With all due respect, I suggest If you are not an avian nutritionist it is inappropriate for you to speculate about adverse affects you think Forco might have, that fly in the face of its wide use in the animal feeding world, including birds and specifically chickens.
I put my money where my mouth is by offering a 60 day money back guarantee if someone I sold Forco to doesn't think it helped their animal, or bird, all they need to do is let me know and I'll send their money back, it's unconditional. So far I have only given one lady her money back. She called up and asked for a refund, when I asked why she said the horse had died. I thought OMG and asked what the horse died of? She said cancer. I told her I didn't guarantee that Forco would cure her horses cancer, but that I would give her, her money back anyway.
FDA approval; it isn't FDA approved because it isn't required to be and would not require FDA approval if it were marketed to humans as a supplement. Which by the way it isn't. Forco is made with all human grade ingredients and it is not mixed in a FDA or USDA plant because it doesn't need to be.
Are we going to guarantee the eggs and meat from chickens fed Forco won't be harmful, no, of course not; that invites lawsuits in an already excessively litigious society.
Avi-culture-2 probably a good probiotic. Since it degrades in the bottle, as the manufacturer says on it's web site, you probably should use it before the expiration date. Since it's live cultures most of them will die in the stomach before they get to the gut. Its pretty expensive but if you think it will help, go for it.
Avi-culture-2's ingredients have an FDA GRAS ( generally regarded as safe) rating. That basically means they (the FDA) don't think the ingredients have killed anybody that they know of, at least lately. Look it up, I did. For whatever its worth, I don't know anybody or anything Forco has killed.
If I sound a little annoyed its because I am. It's really easy to over-think these things. If Forco had been killing chickens all over the place, or if people had been dying from eating eggs or meat from chickens fed with Forco you would have easily been able to find it on the internet.
It sounds to me like the recreational chicken business is a little like the recreational horse business. Everybody is an expert and they tell you if you don't do it their way your horse, or chicken, will die and it will be all your fault. I advise my clients to apply the "rule of good sense and logic" if it sounds logical and fits the evolutionary pattern of the animal it's probably ok. If it doesn't, look it up, as best you can on the internet and do whatever you believe is best for your animal, or bird.
I am trying to offer information as best I can and add a little humor. Any other concerns I would be glad to address.
Jim Rea
Hey Jim,
I'm worried about the 'fungal cultures' - I can guess the approxament digestive enzymes, and the microbs (per the fermentation comments and 'dominant microbes') but I'm wondering about these fungi.
FORCO® uses highly effective fungal cultures and digestive enzymes in making FORCO® FEED SUPPLEMENT. FORCO® uses a formula that was designed over 20 years ago. This formula combines different cultures and enzymes. Doing this makes the fermentative quality greater than if each ingredient is used individually.
- Thread starter
- #66
I think this thread is going to prove to be a valuable laboratory for chickens and Forco. As BYC members decide to try Forco for their flocks, it will be very interesting to read about your results. Naturally, this is going to involve a great deal of patience since results won't be apparent for close to two months after starting feeding Forco.
This thread has grown like crazy because many of us are facing certain very challenging problems with our flocks that have, up to this point, defied solutions. That Forco could be a solution that we've been searching for is a very exciting prospect. We won't know if Forco works as a solution to these problems unless we share our results with each other.
If you are going to try Forco for a problem with your chickens, I invite you to jump in and let us know. Then come back when you start to see changes, or not, and share with the rest of us what you are seeing.
So far, I'm very pleased with the results I've been getting. Flo, the champion feather picker, has remained calm and shows no interest in picking feathers except for the brief relapse a while ago. Other than yanking a single feather once in a while "to make a point" as part of the pecking order, the rest of the girls also have not been picking.
And the big bonus has been my Buff Brahma Joycie is finally growing feathers on her naked neck, back and butt for the first time in a year and a half!
This thread has grown like crazy because many of us are facing certain very challenging problems with our flocks that have, up to this point, defied solutions. That Forco could be a solution that we've been searching for is a very exciting prospect. We won't know if Forco works as a solution to these problems unless we share our results with each other.
If you are going to try Forco for a problem with your chickens, I invite you to jump in and let us know. Then come back when you start to see changes, or not, and share with the rest of us what you are seeing.
So far, I'm very pleased with the results I've been getting. Flo, the champion feather picker, has remained calm and shows no interest in picking feathers except for the brief relapse a while ago. Other than yanking a single feather once in a while "to make a point" as part of the pecking order, the rest of the girls also have not been picking.
And the big bonus has been my Buff Brahma Joycie is finally growing feathers on her naked neck, back and butt for the first time in a year and a half!
- Jun 15, 2011
- 263
- 20
- 111
Label laws dictate that you can only claim and label what has passed with the CVM criteria below. Your product was only tested on and approved for horses and bulls.
Jim said "Are we going to guarantee the eggs and meat from chickens fed Forco won't be harmful, no, of course not;..." This is because they have not clue if it is harmful, because they have not properly tested it or they have tested it and didn't pass CVM approval. I don't know about you guys, this statement alone would stop me from trying this product.
The Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) a branch of the FDA. CVM Authority; In addition to enforcing the provisions of the Act designed to ensure that animal food is safe and properly labeled. (...products marketed as dietary supplements or "feed supplements" for animals still fall under the FFDCA prior to DSHEA, i.e., they are considered "foods" or "new animal drugs"... http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/Products/AnimalFoodFeeds/ucm050223.htm)
CVM's concerns about certain dietary supplements focus on three main areas:
Jim said "Are we going to guarantee the eggs and meat from chickens fed Forco won't be harmful, no, of course not;..." This is because they have not clue if it is harmful, because they have not properly tested it or they have tested it and didn't pass CVM approval. I don't know about you guys, this statement alone would stop me from trying this product.
The Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) a branch of the FDA. CVM Authority; In addition to enforcing the provisions of the Act designed to ensure that animal food is safe and properly labeled. (...products marketed as dietary supplements or "feed supplements" for animals still fall under the FFDCA prior to DSHEA, i.e., they are considered "foods" or "new animal drugs"... http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/Products/AnimalFoodFeeds/ucm050223.htm)
CVM's concerns about certain dietary supplements focus on three main areas:
- Human food safety - supplements that are used in food animals, including horses that are used for food, must be shown to be safe for people who consume products from the animals. Without these data, there is no assurance that animal-derived food is safe.
- Animal safety - supplements must be shown to be safe to the animals. CVM and AAFCO have not received data showing that these products have actually been tested on animals to show that a particular level is appropriate or safe for the animals.
- Manufacturing quality - supplements must be shown to be manufactured to a consistent standard (for example, shown to contain a given amount of the ingredient).
Thanks for your comprehensive reply Jim. You say Forco is made from human grade ingredients and doesn't require an FDA rating. While that may be the case when fed to horses and bulls which aren't generally eaten by humans, would it be a different matter if fed to chooks for eggs and meat?
You say you and the owner want to sell more Forco. The answer to that is simple. Repackage Forco with "Chicken Supplement" labels and sell HEAPS to egg raisers, chicken meat producers, and backyard poultry growers. All of our queries would go away and you'd be onto a large new market. If Forco needs to do some paperwork and pay a few dollars to do that, wouldn't it be worth it?
You say you and the owner want to sell more Forco. The answer to that is simple. Repackage Forco with "Chicken Supplement" labels and sell HEAPS to egg raisers, chicken meat producers, and backyard poultry growers. All of our queries would go away and you'd be onto a large new market. If Forco needs to do some paperwork and pay a few dollars to do that, wouldn't it be worth it?
This is an interesting threat. I would like to know more on how the test flocks are doing. It's the only way to know how it will affect the chickens since the product does not say for poultry.
But lets be honest we all feed the chickens something... or a lot of things... that do not say "For poultry".
Yogurt- Chickens wont get this in the "wild" and I have never seen a chicken latch on to a cow teat for Milk. (Some people give Milk to their chickens) I mean considering that a lot of people use it, swear by it, and the chickens enjoy it, The Yogurt industry is stupid for not putting "Also for Poultry!" on their little containers.
Cheese
Cat food or Dog food. (As of right now there is a lot of stipulation about what IS good for a dog or cats stomach, and what IS bad. For example they say its Bad for a dog to eat cat food, Too much protein.(Or some such thing) And they say its bad for dogs to eat Corn which is a big filler in a lot of dog foods. Not to mention the dreaded "animal by products" """Yuck"""" argument
)
(Big rule of thumb is; if any of the first 3 ingredients listed on the dog food is corn or corn meal, It's a very "bad" food. Because corn, as you know, is not easily digested) I have my own reservations about such things which we wont get into for fear of writing a short story.
Mavrik, you're arguing the point that giving FORCO can be bad for poultry in the long run because it has not been tested on poultry just "ok'd" for horses and bulls. But the fact of the matter is most of us give our chickens things they Probably "shouldn't" have because we believe them to be good for them. In One way Or Another.
There are a few people that are doing the research and putting their flocks out there for it. Lets all hope it works out well
I know depending on how this goes, if it turns out well and I ever have a feather picking problem I have this information to go back to.
But lets be honest we all feed the chickens something... or a lot of things... that do not say "For poultry".
Yogurt- Chickens wont get this in the "wild" and I have never seen a chicken latch on to a cow teat for Milk. (Some people give Milk to their chickens) I mean considering that a lot of people use it, swear by it, and the chickens enjoy it, The Yogurt industry is stupid for not putting "Also for Poultry!" on their little containers.
Cheese
Cat food or Dog food. (As of right now there is a lot of stipulation about what IS good for a dog or cats stomach, and what IS bad. For example they say its Bad for a dog to eat cat food, Too much protein.(Or some such thing) And they say its bad for dogs to eat Corn which is a big filler in a lot of dog foods. Not to mention the dreaded "animal by products" """Yuck"""" argument
(Big rule of thumb is; if any of the first 3 ingredients listed on the dog food is corn or corn meal, It's a very "bad" food. Because corn, as you know, is not easily digested) I have my own reservations about such things which we wont get into for fear of writing a short story.
Mavrik, you're arguing the point that giving FORCO can be bad for poultry in the long run because it has not been tested on poultry just "ok'd" for horses and bulls. But the fact of the matter is most of us give our chickens things they Probably "shouldn't" have because we believe them to be good for them. In One way Or Another.
There are a few people that are doing the research and putting their flocks out there for it. Lets all hope it works out well
- Jul 21, 2011
- 13
- 2
- 24
If you're concerned about adding protein, pre or postbiotics or any other worry, try adding a small amount of dolomite into the morning mash. Yes, the same dolomite as you would add to the garden.
This has proven in Australia to stop feather picking dead in its tracks with no adverse effects.
May I suggest a control group of feather pickers be feed good organic feed plus dolomite and the other group the FORCO product. I bet that both groups will exhibit the same results.
Linz
This has proven in Australia to stop feather picking dead in its tracks with no adverse effects.
May I suggest a control group of feather pickers be feed good organic feed plus dolomite and the other group the FORCO product. I bet that both groups will exhibit the same results.
Linz
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