I think I found a miracle cure for feather picking

[azygous]

Seriously. It's a nutritional supplement and I tried it as a final resort for feather picking.

I've written about Flo, my two-year old EE who began her nefarious career of feather picking at the very tender age of three months. At the time, I thought it was a protein deficiency so I fed her canned tuna for weeks. It had no effect on her. By this time she was eight months old, going about her liberating of the feathers of the flock in a determined and frenzied manner.

I decided to obtain pinless peepers, and when they came, I immediately installed a pair on her. They helped, but she adjusted to them to the point that she was still able to pick feathers off any back that was under her beak. I trimmed her beak. It helped a little. Then she reached the point a few months ago where the pinless peepers stopped working all together.

So I tried bumper bits. This device prevents the beak from closing all the way, and it was so cruel, and Flo couldn't eat, I removed it before one day was over. There was nothing left to do but to eat her. No, wait, I'm just kidding. I segregated her. She spent days in a separate enclosure and nights in a separate coop. Additionally, this feather picking problem had spread to four others in the flock, who were all sporting pinless peepers, too.

Around this time, I was over at some friends for dinner and the topic of managing pets with strange fixations came up. These people had great luck with a product called "Forco" in curbing poop eating in dogs. This product is a nutritional supplement for all animals, a cereal based substance full of vitamins and natural intestinal nutrients.

I decided to give it a try on Flo so I ordered some. When it cam, I offered it free choice, one scoop a day, to the entire flock of fifteen. After a few weeks, I removed the peepers from the other four hens, and around week seven, I decided to remove Flo's pinless peepers. Much to my surprise she showed no inclination to pick feathers. Even during the later afternoon, when her feather picking was usually at its most frenzied, she appeared calm and uninterested in feathers.

It's been almost a month now that Flo has had the peepers off and she still isn't feather picking, nor are any of the others. While this isn't a controlled experiment, I have seen enough to believe this Forco works. Here's the web site http://forco.com/, and they sell it in selected feed stores around the country. I order it by phone 1-866-383-2458. It costs around $25 for a 5 pound bucket or you can also try the one-pounder for less. It includes shipping.

I'm in no way employed by Forco, by the way, just wanting to pass on a tip on something that seems to work for a very heart-breaking problem almost all of us chicken folk have encountered.

 

[equius]

Holy Smoke!

I never thought this would become such a long thread with what seems to be pretty heated opinions. I will try to answer the points that were brought up as best I can.

First of all lets identify who the players are on the Forco side.

Jim Rea

Forco distributor; primarily online and to horse clients.
Do I want to sell more Forco? YES
Would I knowing put chickens at risk to sell more Forco? NO

Dave and Lynette Frank

The owners of Forco
Do they want to sell more Forco? YES
Would they knowing put chickens, or any other living thing at risk to sell more Forco? NO
Have the Frank's fed Forco to chickens and turkeys? YES
Many, thousands? I don't know but I suspect YES
Were there any mass die offs with chickens and turkeys laying
all over stinking up their ranch. NO
Did any of the birds that ate Forco die? YES They all did,
you might have bought one in the grocery store

Now, on to more serious stuff. There have been a lot of comments regarding the safety of feeding Forco, the truth of the matter is Forco has been successfully fed to thousands of horses, cows, pigs, goats, dogs, cats and birds of various kinds. Forco is not horse food, chicken food dog food or any other kind of animal food, It's Microbe food! As such it makes the digestive system of any living thing with a digestive system containing microbes of any kind more efficient. In simple terms, animals and birds that are fed Forco are better able to digest and assimilate whatever they eat.

If you are afraid it's not safe for your birds, don't buy it.

Mavrik says "Avians need a specific type of probiotic, giving a horse probiotic to avians is not a good idea." With all due respect, I suggest If you are not an avian nutritionist it is inappropriate for you to speculate about adverse affects you think Forco might have, that fly in the face of its wide use in the animal feeding world, including birds and specifically chickens.

I put my money where my mouth is by offering a 60 day money back guarantee if someone I sold Forco to doesn't think it helped their animal, or bird, all they need to do is let me know and I'll send their money back, it's unconditional. So far I have only given one lady her money back. She called up and asked for a refund, when I asked why she said the horse had died. I thought OMG and asked what the horse died of? She said cancer. I told her I didn't guarantee that Forco would cure her horses cancer, but that I would give her, her money back anyway.

FDA approval; it isn't FDA approved because it isn't required to be and would not require FDA approval if it were marketed to humans as a supplement. Which by the way it isn't. Forco is made with all human grade ingredients and it is not mixed in a FDA or USDA plant because it doesn't need to be.

Are we going to guarantee the eggs and meat from chickens fed Forco won't be harmful, no, of course not; that invites lawsuits in an already excessively litigious society.

Avi-culture-2 probably a good probiotic. Since it degrades in the bottle, as the manufacturer says on it's web site, you probably should use it before the expiration date. Since it's live cultures most of them will die in the stomach before they get to the gut. Its pretty expensive but if you think it will help, go for it.


Avi-culture-2's ingredients have an FDA GRAS ( generally regarded as safe) rating. That basically means they (the FDA) don't think the ingredients have killed anybody that they know of, at least lately. Look it up, I did. For whatever its worth, I don't know anybody or anything Forco has killed.

If I sound a little annoyed its because I am. It's really easy to over-think these things. If Forco had been killing chickens all over the place, or if people had been dying from eating eggs or meat from chickens fed with Forco you would have easily been able to find it on the internet.

It sounds to me like the recreational chicken business is a little like the recreational horse business. Everybody is an expert and they tell you if you don't do it their way your horse, or chicken, will die and it will be all your fault. I advise my clients to apply the "rule of good sense and logic" if it sounds logical and fits the evolutionary pattern of the animal it's probably ok. If it doesn't, look it up, as best you can on the internet and do whatever you believe is best for your animal, or bird.

I am trying to offer information as best I can and add a little humor. Any other concerns I would be glad to address.

Jim Rea

 

[Pullet Surprise]

7L, I can fully appreciate your situation. It's like going to the grocery store and every thing you buy for human consumption has something that is bad for you! I had my husband read this thread all the way through so we could discuss it. I had backed off the meal worms for fear of over doing it and causing renal failure, expense and (forgive me) the ones we get are "made" in China and I'm just not ready to get into mealworm farming. I would guess that my girl is looking for protien as she eats the feathers she picks. But I also think there is a bordom/stress factor in there as I can almost see her get wound up and just know it's coming. My husband made this point: if there is something that helps the chicken better utilize the protien they do get, then that is a definite plus as we would not have to increase the protien by large amounts with its risks. So we have decided to START with augmenting with game bird feed and see what happens, and then....see if Forco is something we might want to do. So here we stand in the "Chicken Grocery Store"..........

 

[Mavrik]

That is why we have the FDA, so professionals with the proper means and a large information base, can properly test this stuff. Amateur flock owners have no way of knowing if something fed to the flock has adverse effects on animals or people. Will little Johnny get cancer after eating eggs from an additive? Will a chicken live 5 instead of 12 years? These are just a couple of things a backyard flock owner can't answer.

One should never give dairy products to avian's, they can't properly digest them. A chicken will also eat rat poison and "enjoy" that too.

Why are some of you so hard set on doing anything else but giving your chickens the proper diet? Feathers contain protein, that is why chickens eat them.

Here is an idea for a free protein boost: Set up a bug zapper in your run at night, in the morning your crew will have a bounty of moths to dine on. Make sure to use a quality zapper with a florescent lure lamp. (cheap units plug up)

 

[ShakeragSusan]

Last time I checked the FDA had allowed many items into our food (aspartame, anyone?) that turned out not to be safe. I think I'll not put my trust in the FDA. Of course, you all are entitled to if you so choose.

I'll be trying FORCO for my guineas to see if it alleviates a problem with repeated shell-less eggs and for my elderly housecat to see if she re-grows hair on her ears. Yes, I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[7L Farm]

I live on a farm & my chickens eat a lot of bugs.I've tried what you said about upping their protein level & I started mixing GBS & 20% laying pellets. I did this for about a month & it did help but for some reason they still peck each other here & there. Nothing like before. I just hate to see them without all their feathers. I'm gonna try the supplement & see what happens. As I have already stated I've tried it all. So 25 bucks is worth a try. You never know it might have something in it that my chickens needs who knows. I don't think the supplement will hurt them are make them die at an early age.
There's an older farmer that lives across from me & I showed him what my chickens were doing to each other. He immediately said yup their going cannibalistic you need to cut their beaks. I thought to myself no way I'm doing that. But back in the day that's how they handled the problem.
I will bookmark this thread & report back about my chickens & Forco. ADIOS AMIGOS

 

[azygous]

As I see it, if a few of us here at BYC are willing to offer up our flocks as test cases for Forco, the rest of you have nothing to lose by coming back to this thread from time to time and checking to see what, if any, developments have occurred. It's been maybe three months that my flock has been on the Forco supplement, and I see no problems developing, and mostly positive results.

My worst feather picker Flo has mildly reverted to her bad behavior the past few days. It's nothing like it was before, though, where she engaged in a frenzy of running from one hen to the next yanking feathers. I have a hunch she hasn't been getting her share of the Forco scoops I provide each morning. This morning I gave her her Forco segregated from the others, and will continue to do so until I see her improve again.

If we can experiment with this supplement and we can report continuing success with no ill effects, it could be a real break-through treating the problem of feather picking.

By the way, my flock has been eating a 50/50 mix of layer feed and flock raiser feed, and it had no effect on their tendency to pick feathers. They have also sported peepers, and that only solved the problem in half of them, the others adjusting to the limited vision and snatching feathers anyway. This really is a last resort for me. I've tried everything else.

 

[equius]

OK, here I go again:

FireTigeris

A pretty logical question, if you read carefully it says the fungal cultures and digestive enzymes are used in the production of Forco, perhaps we could make that a little clearer. Fungal cultures excrete prolific quantities of cellulite and other enzymes that are used in Forco. The excreted products are what is used in Forco not the fungal culture or the medium it grows on, which are separated from the excreted cellulite and other products which are actually used in Forco. Did I say that clearly enough, sometimes late at night I'm a little fuzzy?

Mavrik

I wouldn't accuse you of of selectively representing the FDA's position of animal feeds but I think you didn't read far enough and/or misinterpreted what you found.

First of all I don't know where you got the idea Forco has been "tested and approved for horses and bulls" it hasn't been tested and approved by the FDA for anything, it doesn't need to be. Animal feeds are not approved by the FDA. If you add a medicine to the feed that medicine has to be approved by the FDA not the feed itself. Further, you can't make claims on the label the FDA thinks are untrue or deceptive.

The only time the FDA gets involved in a specific animal of human food is if someone or a whole lot of somethings die.
I looked at feed labels all over the internet and in my local feed store and couldn't find one that was approved by the FDA, not one. Mavrik, I suggest you look at one of your feed bags and tell me if it has FDA approval.

The FDA has decided the Asenic is not a great addition to poultry feed but has failed to ban it while one drug, Roxarsone is being phased out. But the drug Histostat is still on the market and is used in poultry feeds, the ever vigilant FDA requires it be withdrawn from birds five days before slaughter. Of course under the watchful eye of the ever vigilant FDA which is of course "why we have the FDA, so professionals with the proper means and a large information base, can properly test this stuff". The "FDA said the levels found in their poultry study are low enough that consumers are not at risk eating poultry while Roxarsone is phased out of use in the United States"

I'm a little skeptical that any level or Arsenic is safe. Betcha little Johnny has a better chance of being harmed by Arsenic than Forco.

Mavrik, if you don't live in Maryland there's a pretty good chance that chicken feed is sold in your state could contain one of these two drugs.

See the the excerpt below.
Maryland First State to Ban Arsenic in Poultry Feed

by Helena Bottemiller | May 23, 2012
Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley Tuesday signed a bill banning arsenic in poultry feed, making his state the first to have a law against the practice on the books.

The new law, which takes effect Jan 1, prohibits the use, sale, or distribution of commercial feed containing arsenic and specifically mentions two Pfizer drugs that contain arsenic: Roxarsone, which the company voluntarily withdrew from the market last year, and Histostat, which is still on the market.

The move follows a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) study released last summer that found increased levels of inorganic arsenic in the livers of chickens treated with the Roxarsone. The new data raised concerns of a "very low but completely avoidable exposure to a carcinogen," said Michael Taylor, FDA's Deputy Commissioner for Foods, when FDA announced the company was withdrawing the drug in response to the study's findings.

Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and has been linked to a variety of health concerns, including interfering in fetal development, but FDA said the levels found in their poultry study are low enough that consumers are not at risk eating poultry while Roxarsone is phased out of use in the United States.

If you go to http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/FDAVeterinarianNewsletter/ucm235765.htm You will find in the animal feed section the following:

Animal Feed – The Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act requires food for both people and animals to be:

• safe;
• produced under sanitary conditions; and
• truthfully labeled.

Animal feed includes pet food and pet treats, as well as feed for food-producing animals, such as cattle, pigs, chickens, and farmed-raised fish. Unlike animal drugs, animal feed does not have to be approved by FDA before it can be marketed. However, FDA makes sure the ingredients in the feed are safe and have an appropriate function, and many ingredients must be approved by FDA before they can be used in animal feed. FDA also evaluates the human food safety aspect of animal feed for food-producing animals. That is, FDA makes sure it’s safe for people to eat food products made from animals that ate the feed.

You will note is says "Unlike animal drugs, animal feed does not have to be approved by FDA before it can be marketed." It also says the FDA makes sure the ingredients are safe and it's safe for people to eat the food made from animals that ate the feed. If you believe that happens from a practical standpoint you probably also believe in the the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. There is no way the FDA has enough people to go around to every grain elevator, grain mill and food processing facility. The FDA responds to problems where something dies, or gets real sick, and that's what they should do.

Just as an aside, there is only one chemical free grain mill in the United States and that's the Dynamite mill in Meridian Idaho. Unfortunately I don't believe they make poultry feed.

As another aside, blood meal and bone meal are often used as a protein source in poultry feed which has the remote possibility of transmitting bovine spongiform encephalopathy or mad cow disease.

I think it's pretty easy to be overly fearful of most everything in our lives. If we eat only organic, or only organic vegetarian we still run the risk of salmonella and a myriad of other diseases, conditions and opportunity's for injury. Come on, get up get out take a chance. If you don't want to take a chance on Forco that's ok, but someday all your chickens will die and someday all of us will die, it has always given me great comfort that "life is a sexually transmitted condition that's 100% fatal". God, lets live a little.

Thanks for the soap box.

Jim Rea

 

[azygous]

Whoa! Debbz! What on earth has given you the idea that this is all Forco's doing? Have you read this entire thread, beginning with how I stumbled on the idea of trying Forco for my feather-eaters?

This thread has had the professional input by a Forco representative, Jim Rea, because I asked him to respond to the thread and provide answers to questions that I didn't know. People raised legitimate points that deserved answers, and Jim, being approachable and responsive, agreed to participate in this thread to provide expert responses to questions we all had about his product.

I'm not associated with Forco in any way, and I stipulated that right at the start. This is NOT an advertisement for Forco. It's merely exploring the use of this product for an "off-label" purpose. It's seemed to work for the problems I've been having, and I wanted to share it with others who may be experiencing such problems that have defied solution.

And this is the USA. We use products all the time for purposes other than what they've been originally been designated. There's no law against it as far as I know. As for Forco "publicly promoting off-label use", they are doing no such thing, I assure you. That is something you have come up with out of your own wild imagination.

Let's stick to the original intent of this thread and not venture so far out into the weeds. Please.

 

[azygous]

Yes, the one for horses, believe it or not. Forco feed supplement.

I spoke at great length with Jim, one of the business owners, and we talked about my problem with feather pickers, and he said he feeds it free choice to his chickens.

It was my idea to try this after finding out my friends feed it to their horses and dogs, and how it cleared up a variety of problems with their pets. It's a feed supplement for all animals, not just horses.

My chickens adore the taste. I put a scoop full in a cup inside their oyster shell bin each morning, and they fight each other to finish it off. I haven't had a problem with feather pickers at all since the flock has been eating it.