I wish I knew.. DO YOU KNOW?

[orrpeople]

Not always easy to do. Chickens, like humans, seem to have the gift for making their own stress just by roosters squabbling over who is the biggest baddest rooster in the coop. Or one hen deciding to use another hen's favorite nesting box.

This past year, I began noticing things going downhill in February. I removed extra roosters from the coop and put them in a rooster pen and they still were declining because they weren't happy in the rooster pen. But put them in the main coop and they were fighting and harrassing the hens and dropping like flies. Wasn't anything to do other than let it run it's course.

I lost on the average of 3 birds a month until July. When the temps went up, the losses decreased. Two weeks ago I put a 18 month old hen down. She had been hale and hearty, then suddenly lost weight, developed diarrhea and that was the end for her. I found her one morning sitting away from the flock feathers fluffed and her eyes closed. That is my "oh no" moment with my birds. Some birds go fast, others I can't figure out why they haven't died on me yet. I have 4 birds with ocular Marek's disease. three are Buff O's or BO/Welsummer cross hens and one is a rooster. One hen will be three in February. I keep looking at her and asking her, "Aggie, why aren't you dead yet?" and she just cocks her head at me and carries on. She lost feathers over a year ago to over zealous roosters and has never grown them back...two molts later. She looks scruffy and weird with her one grey pin point pupil eye but she is a first class broody when she sets her mind to it. I offered to knit her a sweater today as the temps haven't gotten out of the 30s.

So here is a question for everyone with Marek's. What is the lifespan of a bird with ocular Marek's compared with the neuro/visceral forms of the disease?

While not as fat and sassy as the hens that are looking more resistant to the disease they are holding their own compared to the birds that I'm keeping an eye on for weight loss and listlessness.

That's something I haven't seen yet (ocular) - I also haven't had any paralysis issues yet. Our indicators have only been wasting away, non-association with food, and sudden death. I was very confused for a while, and the initial report I received for the bird I sent in for necropsy did not come back as Marek's. Then they sent me another one. Like a one-two punch. Fun.
I also had a pretty long discussion with one of the veterinarians at the lab prior to sending it in (because I didn't have cold packs, and they really hate you to send them in with ice cubes), who talked to me about the prevalence of Marek's. Basically, she was saying they didn't really even need to see my bird for the diagnosis. As @duluthralphie so aptly stated (I paraphrase): sour crop= Marek's; wry neck = Marek's, Egg binding =Marek's....

 

[duluthralphie]

So it's ess

I read both articles.

So is ILT the same thing as Mereks? Mereks isn't mentioned anywhere. From that same article, I found this:

"Due to vaccination potential to cause disease, veterinary supervision is strongly recommended when the decision is made to go this route. Since both natural infection and vaccination have been shown to produce "carrier" birds, it is extremely important that susceptible chicken flocks are not exposed to vaccinated or previously infected chickens."

I read some months ago that Privett had some chickens test positive for Mereks. I can't site the article, but I read this online. When this happens at a large hatchery, do they both euthanize and then vaccinate remaining stock used to breed chicks?

If so, what does this mean for the chicks and their resilience and immunity, if anything?

These articles were not meant to he about Mareks, You had asked (or someone about herpes viruses) These articles simply pointed out there are hundreds of herpes viruses some are harmful or deadly some are not.

Herpes is a family of viruses just like primates are a family of animals. If I recall it has to do with the wall structure, that makes a virus a herpes virus.

 

[microchick]

As HPV is a herpes virus that causes reproductive cancers in humans.

Does anyone else suspect that if they find the cure for Marek's they will find a connection between herpes virus and cancers in humans as well?

I think if memory serves me right that I read somewhere that they use hens in studying cancers of human female's reproductive systems as a high number of chickens have reproductive cancers by the time the are a certain age.The percentage was really up there.

Now, does that mean that the hens developing reproductive cancers are developing them as an end result of latent Marek's disease?

 

[Taylorbrood]

Never underestimate the power of human ignorance.

Off subject but in the same line, we have a friend who is a professional bicycle racer from Britian who 'pilots' our speed bike for us when we race it. Years ago he was working in a bike shop and had a customer call and ask him in all seriousness if they had any yellow bicycles in stock. Our friend replied why yes, they did but why did he want a yellow bike in particular. The customer replied why because everyone knows yellow bike are faster than any other color.Our friend said he paused for a moment and replied in a perfect American 'hillbilly' accent why heck yeah we got them yeller bicycles. Everbody knows them are the fastest bikes goin!' The customer actually did buy a yellow bike from him but I have to admit it was pretty chuckleatious hearing an Englishman pull off that accent.

It all boils down to being an informed buyer when it comes to anything. I think there are truly scrupulous people out there who struggle to grow and produce 'organic' products. Then there are those who don't and are truly ripping off the public.

It's a proven fact taht the Amish community overall has a lower incidence of cancers due mainly to the fact that they grow and produce the bulk of their own food. On the other hand they also have a higher incidence of heart disease due to the high consumption of 'bad' fat in the meat they eat. So nothing wrong in trying to eliminate all the processed food intake that you can.

BUT! I seriously cannot see anyone who has Marek's in their flock raising an organic flock. My birds are always being dosed down for something it seems due to the fact that they are now more susceptible to parasites and infections. Somebody has runny poop....time to worm. Who just sneezed? Oops, somebody else just sneezed, time to put Tera-Vet in the water. One problem breeds a host of others and while we do not butcher birds to eat we do eat eggs which is one of the reasons I wanted chickens was so I could produce my own eggs for us to eat and know what went into the hen that laid them.

Well, I do know...sigh. Tera-vet, Corid, Safe Guard, Ivermectin, aspirin, apple cider vinigar, garlic............So much for the idea of low maintenance chickens.

I love how you worded this, my girls are also treated as needed and the eggs tossed. I chuckle at the terms free range and organic, my girls are in a 10x10 static pen as some call it, but they also have a 8x10 yard shed converted to a coop, and they are in and out all day as their food and water is inside not out, I know some will get on me for that, but its on a floor I can clean daily. For those who buy my eggs and want to know why I don't free range 1 it's illegal in our city, they have to be confined; 2 I want to know what my girls are eating; 3 the mere thought of eating an egg if my hen ate a rat or mouse really churns my stomach and I know rats and mice are not organic feeders but garbage feeders; 4 are those bugs they are consuming organic? have they walked through a pesticide or lawn treated area as they migrated to my yard? I have no idea. I think people who buy eggs need to ask alot more questions. A local farm around here who sells eggs has hens whose feathers are rough and ragged, they were selling this years hens for new layers and the ragged, rough ones were being sold for 15.00 a hen. I want to know why they would look like that as they were not in molt at the time, do people ask when did you worm last and with what? I don't use Wazine, but know alot of people who do and it says point blank not for laying hens whose eggs are for human consumption. Neither do folks ask if hens receive vet care, what are the bio procedures and how often is your coop cleaned. My byc's are not open for public viewing, but if someone wants to see my coop I do allow it if they garb up before they enter my yard and don't enter the area where my girls are. I also let them know why, my girls have been exposed to Mareks and I don't want them taking it out of my yard or bringing anything else into my yard. So far nobody has wanted to visit them lol but will buy my eggs. I guess in my opinion there is no such thing as an organic hen unless your raising it in a bubble and free range to me means you get what your hen eats. if eggs can take on the flavor of garlic I would think they could take on the flavor of rat/mouse/bugs. but what do I know lol

 

[sbhkma]

And I'm still trying to understand why Mareks, a herpes virus, is lethal. Are there other herpes viruses chicken can get that aren't lethal?

Herpes virus is also seen in horses. There are several strains, one of which has a high mortality rate. Like Mareks, it is thought to be found in most horses over 2 years of age so it has the same type of high morbidity rate as Mareks. Some strains cause mares to abort foals, some cause death, some cause brain damage (I love horses, but they're not the smartest animal on the planet and the thought of a brain damaged 1,000 lb animal scares the hell outta me!).

 

[microchick]

I have to admit it is a situation of mind over matter when I first saw one of my Welsummer hens galloping around the run singing her heart out with a baby mouse in her mouth. They had managed to scratch out a nest from under a board in our barn and it was party time! Of course she gulped it down before I could intervene but the thought that went through my mind was,I wonder if we are going to be eating mouse flavored eggs this week?

Yes, agreed. Trying to avoid the Herpes virus is like trying to avoid paying taxes....you might be able to get away with it for a while but sooner or later they are gonna catch up with you.

Had chicken pox? You've had a herpes virus. Shingles? Ditto. Cold sores? Yep, the list goes on but you get my drift. And yes, while not all herpes viruses that humans contract have the potential of giving you cancer, with chickens it's just about a given that if they survive the primary infection with Marek's, they will succumb to cancer at a later date.

 

[sbhkma]

Just for you, microchick...a pic of my Welsummer gals hanging out on the bench I bought 20 years ago to commemorate my dad's passing. I sit on it and talk to him. I wonder if Luna and Leia do too? I love the Wellies and am getting more in two weeks. They will be Marek's and Fowl Pox vaccinated. Getting them at 9 weeks, so they'll have had the fowl pox at 8 and a week to recover before the stress of moving. I have had Marek's and Fowl Pox here. I also have about eleventybillion doves and other wild birds, so it's expected I'll have this to deal with. Doing the best I can with vaccinations, cleanliness and Oxine and hope for the best.

 

[Sunshine Flock]

Just for you, microchick...a pic of my Welsummer gals hanging out on the bench I bought 20 years ago to commemorate my dad's passing. I sit on it and talk to him. I wonder if Luna and Leia do too? I love the Wellies and am getting more in two weeks. They will be Marek's and Fowl Pox vaccinated. Getting them at 9 weeks, so they'll have had the fowl pox at 8 and a week to recover before the stress of moving. I have had Marek's and Fowl Pox here. I also have about eleventybillion doves and other wild birds, so it's expected I'll have this to deal with. Doing the best I can with vaccinations, cleanliness and Oxine and hope for the best.View attachment 1172471

Hey, how did Gertrude and Hortense get all the way to Texas, and back in time for dinner?

We have five Welsummer hens and our darling Wellie rooster Henry.

 

[microchick]

Awwwww Pretty girls. I'd take a pic of my lone Welly rooster, Doc but he's in the middle o a really ratty molt and looks like the last rooster up for auction at a sale barn at the moment, poor baby. I have found that the Welsummer roosters are some of my favorite and honestly sad that I only have one left thanks to Marek's.

My fear is that the harsh reality will be that Marek's is here to stay. At least for the small flock hobbiest and homesteader.

 

[orrpeople]

Just for you, microchick...a pic of my Welsummer gals hanging out on the bench I bought 20 years ago to commemorate my dad's passing. I sit on it and talk to him. I wonder if Luna and Leia do too? I love the Wellies and am getting more in two weeks. They will be Marek's and Fowl Pox vaccinated. Getting them at 9 weeks, so they'll have had the fowl pox at 8 and a week to recover before the stress of moving. I have had Marek's and Fowl Pox here. I also have about eleventybillion doves and other wild birds, so it's expected I'll have this to deal with. Doing the best I can with vaccinations, cleanliness and Oxine and hope for the best.View attachment 1172471

They're lovely!
One thing I keep going back to is that we really only have today anyway - all of us - but especially our feathered friends out back (I joke - cats have 9 lives, chickens have 1/3 of a life). I want, each day, to do everything I can to make sure they're happy and healthy - the rest is not in my hands to control.
This "it's in the air" virus hits me particularly hard because I'm a scrubbing, cleaning fool. I can't control it. So, I have to remind myself over and over to do what I can, but ultimately, let go - live out today - and let tomorrow worry about itself.