Ideas on a self-sustainable flock?

[Minky]

Hi folks
Im a newbie. Got a mixed flock of 7 for eggs. Currently 3 have started to lay.

I'm thinking ahead and starting to plan how to have a self sustaining flock, that provides my family (family of 5) enough eggs (15-20 a week will be enough for our personal use) and also provides us with enough meat birds for the year. I dont like the idea of eating my layers (who all have names and eat from our hands etc) but next spring we'd like to raise 30-40 chickens for the freezer as well.
On top of this, I know that after a couple years egg production decreases, so would like to raise my own layers in time to take over from the older girls.

Now, to me, it makes sense to get a Rooster- but then, will there be enough genetic diversity? Do I need 2 Roosters? Do people swap Roosters for their "services" ;-)
How would I breed 30-40 eggs (for freeezer birds) does a chicken still only lay one egg every 26 hrs even when they are fertilized? Does that mean all 7 of my egg layers would have to be laying fertilised eggs and sitting on them all day for weeks on end and then all chicks would be hatching one per day etc etc?? Sorry if these are really dumb questions. Ex- city girl here.

How would you manage a flock that you wanted to get 15-20 eggs from each week all year, and raise 30-40 meat birds from March - June??

Important to me- all my meat birds would be free ranging on our land, supplementing with feed.
They would be dual purpose breeds, not those ugly birds that are somewhat featherless and raised just for meat.

Ideally, we'd process the meat birds a few at a time as needed (my husband would do it) but we arent sure if thats practical. The other option would be to drive all 40 to someone else who would process for us, but trying to not incur any costs, and truly live off our land like the olden days...

Any tips, ideas, suggestions welcome. Thanks!!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

There are a lot of different ways to approach what you are doing. In many ways it’s really close to what I do. In keep one rooster and anywhere from 6 to 8 hens in my main breeding/laying flock. I use an incubator to hatch a lot of chicks early in spring and broody hens to hatch and raise more later. I try to eat one chicken a week, but with visiting grandkids and other things I only need about 45 a year. There are only two of us so we can get two meals out of a pullet or hen. Since half of what I hatch are female, half of what I eat are female. With kids you might need more. In many ways you’ll have to experiment a bit to find what works best for you for this and everything else.

You will find that egg production will go up and down throughout the year. Often, not always but often, a pullet will skip the molt her first year and keep laying throughout the winter and all the way until the next fall, when they molt and stop laying. I rotate my hens, keeping some pullets every year as replacements and eating some of the older hens. Most winters I get some eggs to eat on, though two years ago it did not work out that well. Those pullets just would not lay.

Some hens will never go broody no matter what breed. Some hens might go broody a lot, regardless of their breed. They do have tendencies, your Orpingtons have a reputation that they go broody, but it is really challenging to raise enough meat birds just using broody hens unless you keep a really large flock that often go broody. They certainly will not go broody when you want them to, if they go at all. If you are going to raise them for meat and hatch your own I really think you need to get an incubator.

If you store eggs in ideal conditions you can store them for two weeks or so and get really good hatch rates. There are different criteria for ideal conditions, part of that is 55 degrees F and high humidity. The closer you can come to that the longer they stay viable. I don’t have those conditions, I store them in the house at room temperature and humidity, often pretty low humidity depending in the time of the year. I can store them a week like that and still get good hatch rates. I do turn mine regularly.

As far as genetic diversity, a standard model used on small farms for the past few thousand years is to keep a flock with one rooster or more, but usually not many. They keep hatching and saving replacements for a few generations, that includes keeping his son as the rooster, but eventually they bring in a new rooster. Usually they could go for four or five generations before bringing in new blood. One key is that you cannot become sentimental and keep a special needs chicken. You need to be pretty ruthless at eating any that show defects, or at least do not allow them to breed. The larger your breeding flock, number of hens as well as roosters, the longer you can go. There are other techniques breeders use to maintain genetic diversity but this is a tried and true system that has worked for thousands of years for people in your situation.

The chickens you raise will not taste like the store birds and will have more texture. That’s because of age. Our dual purpose birds do not grow fast enough to be butchered at 6 to 8 weeks like those broilers. The older they are when butchered the more flavor they have and the more texture. Some people just don’t like that taste. You have to adjust your cooking methods to take into consideration the age of the bird. You can’t fry or grill an older bird and expect it to be tender. The older they are the slower they need to be cooked and the more liquid you need. There are ways to turn a very old bird into a gourmet meal but if you cook them wrong they are closer to shoe leather.

I have limited freezer space, especially when the orchard and garden are really producing. So I raise a few different batches of chickens throughout the year. With the dual purpose birds I don’t have to put them in the freezer at a special time, I can leave them on the hoof if I need to and get them later. But I may have to change the way I cook them.

You will hear a lot of myths on here about roosters. Many of those are based on experiences with cockerels, not mature roosters. There is a huge difference in immature cockerels and mature roosters as far as behaviors go. Another issue is that the tighter the space the more likely you are to have behavioral problems regardless of age. Also regardless of sex, hens can be pretty brutal at times. Mature roosters should take care of all members of his flock, chicks as well as hens. Cockerels are a bit more problematic. I leave my rooster with the flock all year long, winter or summer, whether there are baby chicks in there or not. I don’t know why you asked about removing a rooster part of the year, if you can tell us why maybe we can address that concern and make you feel better about it.

If you are just after meat and you buy a fair amount of what they eat you cannot beat the special meat birds as far as efficiency. The Cornish X will generally need to be processed by the time they are 8 weeks old, though there are exceptions depending on how you feed them. No matter what anyone says on here about any topic, there are exceptions. That’s part of why you need to experiment and do trial and error to see what works for you. The Pioneer or Rangers are still special meat birds but they grow slower and generally handle pasture better than the Cornish X.

My general suggestion is to read on here as much as you can, including in the Articles section at the top. Keep an open mind though. If anyone, including me, tells you that you have to do something a special way or you will have guaranteed disaster, get a second opinion. There are so many different ways that work and we are all in a unique to ourselves situation that there is just no one way that is best for all of us. Try some things. If it doesn’t work be flexible, eat your mistakes, and try something different. And never be afraid to ask any question that pops in your mind. We all have to start somewhere and the only silly question is the one that is not asked.

 

[Mrs. K]

The best of plans... one can plan and plan and I have... only other factors come into play, such as predators!

My advice, is give yourself 3-5 years to become self sufficient. There is a learning curve, and it can be expensive. Roosters are cheap, and generally easy to find, one can add them as needed.

One also does not have to the whole thing one way, what I mean by that is have a mixed flock of layers, some dual purpose, and maybe a dozen meat birds. If you like eggs, a few layers, birds that don't have much meat on them, but lay eggs nearly every day, are good to have in your flock. Some dual purpose birds, will lay eggs pretty good, combined with some layers and you have a reasonable supply of daily eggs.

Meat birds, generally need to be processed all at once. However, you get birds in the freezer, long before them become a favored friend. And they are meatier, more tender, and will taste more like you are used to. I got a picker head, that fits on a drill. Did a fantastic job, less than $100. If you like the whole deal, then buy or make your own picker. Picking by hand is incredibly tedious. And it seems like you just can't get rid of them all. Butchering is a job, and my first ones took a long time to get it done. I did 3 and was exhausted. But with time you get better, get a better product too. It just takes a bit of experience, and you can only get that one way.

Mostly, my advice is start small, get them figured out, the space they need, predator proof coop/run, a second coop/run, butchering equipment, extra pens... butcher a few, see how it goes, modify the set up, then try a little more. It will be more enjoyable to you both, considerably less stressful, and more successful.

Mrs K

 

[duluthralphie]

Interesting opinions from all.

There really is no wrong way. I have toads, as was mentioned, my own breed:

There are 5 flocks of people know raising toads. We are trying to keep the genetics the same in them as we make minor tweaks.

Toads are not featherless, they do get balder in the summer. with added light I get 5-6 eggs a week from them in winter. Outdoors spring, summer and fall gives me the same. The problem right now is roosters. You do not want to have just one rooster because of their size they are not as long lived as the girls.

I have never noticed a taste difference based on testosterone in chickens. I am sure there could be...

I prefer older birds for processing. A 6-8 week old bird is too mushy and does not taste "chickeny" enough for me.


I like rooster close to a year old. (culls) they roast up so tender and I am a roasted chicken person. Not sure how they would fry. I do make fryers out of 6 month old ones though...


Toad Pictures... This guy was 22 pounds. All the roosters dress out around 15 pounds.

and his Great Great Grandpa...

 

[Crazy for Chickens!]

It it's kind of hard to understand what your getting at, but I'll try.
you only need 1 rooster if you have ten hens or less. If you have more, you might want to get another, but it really depends on the rooster.
A hen lays 1 egg per day, fertilized or non-fertilized. You would have to have the kind of chickens that you want chicks from. If you have seven hens, you would collect the eggs from them every day, and when you got the desired amount of eggs, you could incubate them. Sounds like you want to have a hen set on them, so for 30-40 eggs, you would need a couple hens. Also, big thing here, your hens would have to go Broody, for them to set on them. Most hens will not go broody. Some that do more often are Cochins, and Silkies. Silkies are very good setters.
30-40 meat chickens seems a lot for your family, but as long as you can eat them all!
Meat birds are usually tasty when they are young. So if you raised them, and they were ready to butcher, you would ideally butcher them all, at once. It's a big process to butcher, especially if you are plucking by hand. (that would take hours and hours)

 

[aart]

I’m that one person that loves ALL animals no matter how they look and I’m a little hurt by this.

This thread is about chickens as food, not pets.
If it 'hurts' you, best to just pass this thread by.

 

[duluthralphie]

I don’t know anything about how to help you but id just like to defend the ‘ugly’ featherless birds. I’m that one person that loves ALL animals no matter how they look and I’m a little hurt by this. I have an adorable Naked Neck cockerel that we will sadly have to give away since we do not want a rooster, but he’s going to a farm that won’t kill him. His name is Cashew and he’s the sweetest thing. He likes to play with my shoe laces and run around me like a little kid. Even my own family members say he’s ugly but I think not a single thing is wrong about him. He’s adorable, I love him, and they are exactly the same as any other fully feathered bird. I even think it’s upsetting that people actual bred them to be this way so they would be EASIER to kill and pluck. Nobody wanted him or his little black Silkie mix friend, so I took both of them. And I love them.
View attachment 1208717

I assure you when the birds are plucked they don't feel a thing... And ugly things are easier to eat,,,, Except for lutefisk,,,,which is ugly and impossible to eat..

 

[Foristers]

How I do it is that year one 1) I got 6 hens and a roo (I thought). Turned out to be 5 hens and 2 roosters. I choose the biggest and best rooster to be the breeder for the flock and culled the other at about 22 weeks, which was still a good age and tender meat for my breed. The other rooster went on to live long enough in the early spring to fertilize all hens eggs. Year 2) Once I had 2 hens go broody in the spring, I culled the other rooster. He was 40 weeks by that time and not as tender so that guy had to be sent to the crock-pot with pintos & onions or chicken & dumplings, etc. (Some slow cooker recipe).
The two broody hens each sat on about 6-8 fertilized eggs of which 12 hatched and 9 survived to adulthood. I don't use incubators as I wish the flock to be self-sustaining like you are talking about. Plus I don't want all that work. I let the chickens do their thing and I simply manipulate the outputs occasionally. I keep mothers and chicks separated from the rest of the grown flock, in their own fence pen with overhead protection, until they are about 8 weeks old.
So of the 9 chicks that hatched: 4 were females and 5 were males. I let the roosters grow up with the flock and interact with the hens until they are about 10-16 weeks of age, depending on several unrelated factors (including convenience for me) and then I put the males in a "chicken tractor" and move them daily on fresh grass. Then hens keep on laying int eh hen house which has access to 2 large "yards" that I switch them back and forth from seasonally, after I grow some more vegetation on the one not in use.
Like in the video I mentioned, I weigh my roosters and hens to see who is progressing well. I culled the smallest 2 roosters at about 15-18 weeks and the meat was very good - as long as it is allowed to age in the fridge dry or in brine water for about 3 days. After that they can be eaten fresh or frozen for later. I culled the next smallest rooster at 20 weeks; still good meat. I left the last two because they were very close in weight. I let them all free range during harvest season (roosters and hens together), by that time in the fall, and they gleaned the cornfield for me - which also prevented attracting (more) mice. This gave me time to observe behaviors and see who was the better leader of the flock. I had a clear winner and as it turned out he also out-gained the other rooster and I culled the last rooster and I was down to one rooster as the breeder for year three.

I also weigh the hens (as I do the roosters) and I only breed the largest and healthiest. One thing to keep in mind, also mentioned in the video I suggested, is that you should be selective in choosing your "breeders". I only collect fertilized eggs from the three largest and healthiest hens. DO NOT allowed fertilized eggs from sick, weak, or small hens to go under a broody hen (or into an incubator). Over time this improves your flock. Over time you breed a particular flock to your specific property; whatever diseases are spread to them by wild birds, whatever insects are common, etc. If one or two hens show a natural immunity to those harmful aspects that come with any specific area, you want to breed that into your continuing flock. This is the best bio-security feature that you can do long term for a self-sufficient flock - selective breeding.
This is where you should be spending your time and effort, not in maintaining an incubator (IMO), but in gathering data from your flock so that you can choose your best "breeders".
Year three I had 4 hens go broody in the spring, who each sat on 8 eggs of which 26 hatched and 22 survived to adulthood. It was an even split 11/11 male/female. Same routine: chick & mothers separated until 8 weeks, males in a chicken tractor at 11 weeks, etc. All the same. Had alot more meat; had alot more eggs. Started having to sell eggs so they did not go bad. Built up a client base and now the chickens more than pay for themselves.
But most importantly, each year when I weigh my chickens they are getting larger and by appearance and behavior, they are getting much healthier. Each new generation is better then the previous one.

A few more pointers in regards to your 2nd post - Fertilized eggs cook up and keep the same as unfertilized eggs. 2) A fertilized egg is technically good for 10 days but I have personally hatched out 18 day old eggs kept a little below room temp. (from a broody hen, not an incubator) 3) Eggs you plan on eating should be refrigerated. Eggs you plan to hatch out should be kept at about 50 degrees to room temp.
4) Processing your own meat birds shouldn't cost you anything. It doesn't cost me anything. 5) I am rather frugal with my chicken raising and so I do not keep a rooster all year. After the spring breeding season, which funny enough I reintroduce my "breeding rooster" back to his hens on Valentine's Day (haha), I cull the last rooster. The frugal part comes in because by March/April - if a chicken is not laying an egg for me than I do not continue buy feed for it. You guys might run your flock differently though. WHo knows. 6) You'll know if a hen goes broody if she doesn't leave the nesting box for a couple of days. Most heritage breeds might start doing this in the spring, as mine do. But in the chicken calendar year, this is the right time to renew/refresh the flock anyway.
Good luck.

 

[aart]

***PS. Lazy Gardener- you lost me on the DR PR Cx R Pioneer etc etc.
I figured out Dual Purpose = DR but not sure about the rest. Can you explain?
thx

@lazy gardener I didn't get the C x R either.

My general suggestion is to read on here as much as you can, including in the Articles section at the top. Keep an open mind though. If anyone, including me, tells you that you have to do something a special way or you will have guaranteed disaster, get a second opinion. There are so many different ways that work and we are all in a unique to ourselves situation that there is just no one way that is best for all of us. Try some things. If it doesn’t work be flexible, eat your mistakes, and try something different. And never be afraid to ask any question that pops in your mind. We all have to start somewhere and the only silly question is the one that is not asked.

....and take notes. I keep a Word file and a spreadsheet to keep links and notes. Add headings like coops, roosts, nests, incubation, integration, slaughter etc...for easier searching later.

You've gotten lots of good advice. It will take you a year or two or three or....to figure out what works best for you.

"If it doesn’t work be flexible, eat your mistakes, and try something different."
Wise Words There.

I will suggest you hatch out some chicks next late winter/early spring and see how it goes. If you don't have a cock/erel yet, see if you can get some fertile eggs locally.
This will give you experience in incubation, integrating the new chicks, and slaughtering of the extra cockerels. I harvest extra cockerels between 12-16 weeks, still tender enough for grill but before they start causing too much trouble.

I hatch out new birds every spring, then cull cockerels and older layers to get down to my winter population.

 

[Mrs. K]

Black_Dove2 - Yes to the question is 40-50 too much? Really 50 birds could be a lot of work. Keep yourself in mind, and do not become a slave to the hobby. Less than a dozen hens will more than keep most of us in eggs. Freeze some eggs at the height of production to eke out the low producing months in December, I use my few fresh for eating, and bake with my frozen.

Most of us have been bitten with the chicken math "more is better" but it is better to take good care of a few, verses being a slave to many. All of the chores are less with a smaller group, the feed bill is less, the carrying water is less, the bedding and clean up is less. Granted the egg production is less too, but for me and mine, it is enough.

As long as you cull old birds, and add young birds you can get along quite well with a smaller flock.

Mrs K