If all chickens had to be cageless

[Reinbeau]

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?, would you be in favor of this proposal if attached to it was ALL importation of goods not produced by USA standards was no longer allowed?

Well, there is nothing attached, so why are you trying to cloud the issue with more layers?

Good bye all electronics, scooters, cycles, clothes, etc.. you get the drift.

No, I don't get the drift. If those products aren't 'up to USA standards' then they are recalled. Badly produced food that doesn't kill people slides right by. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.​

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

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And there is the crux of the arguement: are battery cage inhumane?

Jim

 

[seedcorn]

No, I don't get the drift. If those products aren't 'up to USA standards' then they are recalled. Badly produced food that doesn't kill people slides right by. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Sorry, it's not that they aren't built to USA standards it's that the companies that built them did not use labor, safety, environmental laws that are up to USA standards.

Why does it matter? Simple if passed layer production will just go to other states (if passed elsewhere as one post indicated) they will just go to Mexico where there are no laws. It won't change the chickens life, just their place of residence. Want an example, see fruit and vegetables. Every time you buy non-American fruit/vegetables you are supporting the use of uncontrolled pesticides, human rights violations, etc.......surely no one on this board would condone that?​

 

[d.k]

* Is a battery cage and the kind of life that goes with it nhumane? I don't think that's even the question, jim, because the answer is obvious. The question of how to make things better without destroying an industry is a lot harder, more expensive, requires more resources to make happen-- and may not work. Risk and the law of unintended consequences. The entire short life of a chicken destined for pure egg production or the table isn't what most of us here would call humane-- That is why we have backyard chickens. Battery "life" is inhumane, and ought to be changed. Is this the law to do it. DOUBTFULL. Like most things the goverment does, especially California's, it probably goes too far, far too fast. IF they legalized backyard chickens, a lot of battery factories would die-- or move-- on their own. They may have to move to Mexico, or elsewhere, but IF backyard chickens were legalized, then big ag battery farms wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen, they don't want us either.

 

[seedcorn]

question of how to make things better without destroying an industry

This is the tough question. It starts with getting the American consumer to pay for things done the way they want them done. If no one would support (pick an industry you don't like) they will change or be put out of business.

Running them out of business w/government regs is not the way to do it. We've done that to locker plants for one. The small family locker plant can't exist as it did because of government regs. I'd much rather have a family locker where I know how they do things vs meat imported with no knowledge or ability to control.​

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

d.k :

* Is a battery cage and the kind of life that goes with it nhumane? I don't think that's even the question, jim, because the answer is obvious.

I didn't realize that the scientific community had definitively answered that question. I'll have to contact Dr. Janice Swanson at Michigan State to get the references. If that question was so obvious then battery cages would have been removed from the farms BY THE FARMERS!

Jim​

 

[d.k]

* Just because your Dr. Swanson is a scientist and professional doesn't mean she can't be wrong, jim. Science and scientists have made (and will make) a lot of mistakes in the course of the history of the world. THEY are not immune to their own worldview either. They are also not a very good measure of the balance of right and wrong in behavior or practice. They push the limits as far as they will go regardless. And they believe they are right almost without exception. But, that's another topic as well. Circular argument, jim, "science" is what got us to this point in the first place. Well, halfway-- I'll give at least half-credit to greed as well.

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

Regardless of what each of us 'fee' the housing of livestock is not a black and white issue. The Proposition in question is flawed, poorly worded, and has the potential to be devastating. The Scientific community is working with commodity and consumer groups to generate appropriate quidelines for housing of livestock that meets current needs.

The whole humanity issue is a tough one and can be argued a myriad of directions. For example:

What is more humane allowing a pig to farrow outside and have her pigs eaten by coyotes or having that sow inside a barn protected from predators?

I could throw up a myriad of examples.

JIm

 

[LoupGarou]

One of the biggest problems with this legislation is that the people behind it have no interest in animal welfare. Animal rights organizations just want to eliminate all domestic animals everywhere, whether pet animals or farm animals. Make no mistake, the bill was written vaguely on purpose; the plan is to use it to target private chicken owners--like the people here--in addition to corporate farms. Look at the mandatory spay/neuter laws being passed in CA. Such laws do not work--more animals are abandoned to shelters or tossed onto the streets since pet sterilization costs too much for many people to afford. Animals are under assault in CA, that's for sure.

I believe that animals need to live in humane conditions, but I hate that so many celebrities are buying into the AR propaganda and are responsible for spreading it to our younger generation. I hate to see the anthropomorphizing of our pets--I have seven dogs, but even though they are my best friends, they are not my "furbabies" (*gak*), they are dogs that like to do dog-like things. Do battery-cage chickens get to do "chicken-like" things? No. Is there a better way of dealing with the issues they face without giving animal rights activists power over the industry? There has to be.

The future does not look good for the domesticated animal in the US. Look at recent legislation passed in Los Angeles, Dallas, and Louisville, if you have any doubts at all.

 

[andehens]

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hear.......hear