Inbreeding and Line-Breeding Poultry

[3riverschick]

Just a fair warning- all if these " la la la inbreeding is swell" folks seem to be forgetting to mention a few things. If you are going to operate as advised, you need to understand that-
- you must hatch large numbers each year.
- you must cull incredibly ruthlessly.
- you must start with the genes, traits, diversity , etc that you want or need
- you must start with a breed already bred to a very high degree of perfection, not a breed that needs major work.
- you must start with the very very best stock from the very very best breeder around.
- all the advice you have been given so far assumes your goal is to breed top show birds, and that you start with top show birds from the best line.
- this is a system designed to maintain perfection, not fix something broken or create something new.
If your goal is winning shows with a breed that's where it needs to be, then the advice you have been given is standard practice.

Yes, you are correct. This is what I have, this is my plan, and this is where I am going. I already know how to do this from the dog world. The genetics don't translate, but the techniques are essenitally the same....except with dogs, one does more interweaving inbreeding and linebreeding, instead of so many generations of straight inbreeding. . All that said, maybe this lister doesn't want to breed top show birds, however, I don't think it is off-base to share this system anyway. Thanks for pointing out these bits of knowledge, they are important to success with this system
Best Success,
Karen

 

[Matt1616]

Just a fair warning- all if these " la la la inbreeding is swell" folks seem to be forgetting to mention a few things. If you are going to operate as advised, you need to understand that-
- you must hatch large numbers each year.
- you must cull incredibly ruthlessly.
- you must start with the genes, traits, diversity , etc that you want or need
- you must start with a breed already bred to a very high degree of perfection, not a breed that needs major work.
- you must start with the very very best stock from the very very best breeder around.
- all the advice you have been given so far assumes your goal is to breed top show birds, and that you start with top show birds from the best line.
- this is a system designed to maintain perfection, not fix something broken or create something new.

If your goal is winning shows with a breed that's where it needs to be, then the advice you have been given is standard practice.

gallorojo, I'm not sure where or how you obtained this information but I'm not sure how you could be more wrong...
I know the breeder that this person got this pair of Sumatras from very well and he is a close friend of mine. We are also partners with several breeds of poultry. He hatches a maximum of 20-30 chicks per year of each breed that he keeps.
You do no have to hatch large numbers. The only reason you would need to hatch large numbers is if you crossed his strain with another and messed them up.
I guess I'm not following you on the you must cull ruthlessly, you would only keep the very best no matter how or what you breed.
The next 4 statements that you made, the answer to each is "she did".
I don't think she would have bought birds from Doug if she wasn't wanting the best.

To the Original Poster, breed the pair that you got from Doug and next year breed the Sons to Mothers and Daughters to Father. It would also not kill you to breed brother to sister a time or two if they are much better than the 2 parent birds. You will have excellent birds this coming year, enjoy them.

 

[3riverschick]

gallorojo, I'm not sure where or how you obtained this information but I'm not sure how you could be more wrong...
I know the breeder that this person got this pair of Sumatras from very well and he is a close friend of mine. We are also partners with several breeds of poultry. He hatches a maximum of 20-30 chicks per year of each breed that he keeps.
You do no have to hatch large numbers. The only reason you would need to hatch large numbers is if you crossed his strain with another and messed them up.
I guess I'm not following you on the you must cull ruthlessly, you would only keep the very best no matter how or what you breed.
The next 4 statements that you made, the answer to each is "she did".
I don't think she would have bought birds from Doug if she wasn't wanting the best.

To the Original Poster, breed the pair that you got from Doug and next year breed the Sons to Mothers and Daughters to Father. It would also not kill you to breed brother to sister a time or two if they are much better than the 2 parent birds. You will have excellent birds this coming year, enjoy them.

Hi Matt1616,
I considered 30 chicks a large number of chicks, smile. I thought 12 chicks was a small number. Oh well, what do I know?
Best,
Karen

 

[gallorojo]

30 chicks is not a large number. 12 chicks is running a breed into the ground. Hopefully someone can come along and back me up. I hope that the last 2 comments were in jest? I know I can come across as coarse or gruff in my posts, and I will apologize for that in advance. I am not wrong about the need to hatch extremely large numbers and cull very hard if you plan to do inbreeding/line breeding. That is just how it works. If you are not doing those 2 things, you can not have success long term, and you at not improving the breed.

 

[saladin]

gallo couldn't be MORE RIGHT.

With 2 birds you'll be ok for a few years provided one of the original birds does not die. If you are looking to keep these birds for years then you are going to need to plan on getting more pullets in not less that 5 years.

I understand the finance part; trust me I do. It is fine to start with 2 birds, but that IS NOT DEEP ENOUGH to maintain any strain for very long.

The idea that a pair could be carried on for the quoted 50 years is just not true. There are very few inbreeders that don't add something else to the mix every 7 to 8 years.

 

[3riverschick]

30 chicks is not a large number. 12 chicks is running a breed into the ground. Hopefully someone can come along and back me up. I hope that the last 2 comments were in jest? I know I can come across as coarse or gruff in my posts, and I will apologize for that in advance. I am not wrong about the need to hatch extremely large numbers and cull very hard if you plan to do inbreeding/line breeding. That is just how it works. If you are not doing those 2 things, you can not have success long term, and you at not improving the breed.

Hi,
I wasn't kidding, tho I do think large numbers should start at 50, instead. Not everyone has the facilities to work with large numbers. I know I don't. That said, I have succeeded in dogs with small numbers and know I can do it here too. It requires much more study and research than larger numbers because every mistake carries the threat of a larger penalty in the breeding program. There is no "maybe this chick will turn out" in a small flock breeding program. Every decision needs to be correct , based on research , study, and future plans.
One must know the history and origins of their breed. Have figured out from that research, the nuances of the breed, without which knowledge it is very difficult to select for proper breed type. One must have a written formal breeding plan of at least 5 years duration which accounts for a set goal, using the bird's heritage and genetics. Every bird kept, is kept not only for its excellencies but for a place preset for it in the formal breeding program.
One must have studied several breeding systems and know when and how to use them to accomplish the breeding programs' goals. If anyone thinks they can succeed with a small flock without doing these things, they are fooling themselves and will fail. The exception is the small flock owner who is simply breeding cookie-cutter birds by imitating a successful breeder who is usually their teacher, and who doesn't need or want to think for themsleves..
Best Success,
Karen

 

[saladin]

I went back and read your original post and decided that I along with the others jumped the gun in answering your question.

First, you need a CLEARLY defined goal.

Are you wanting to maintain this strain for years to come? Or do you simply want to breed birds a while?

There is a big difference between these two.

Most of us answered based on the first question receiving a positive answer without considering the second question.

If you are just wanting to breed a few birds to show then all you have to do is breed the original pair together year after year for 5 years or more.... however long they are fertile. It will not matter if you hatch 2, 20 or 200. Keep what you want discard the rest.

At the end of five years, buy a new pair from Doug and do it all over again.

It doesn't matter if they are brother and sister, father and daughter, uncle and niece.

 

[CLuck8]

Frankly, I kinda disagree with all the guys who say my line will disappear.

I figure if I hatch 15 chicks a year, and cull 10 of them, I have 7 great birds that will make awesome breeding stock. Again, I hatch 25 the next year, cull again, and have 8 birds that are tip-top. Now I have 15 great birds. I can sell some, show some, breed some more, and in 10 generations or so, buy another pair from the original breeder, Akers, to introduce some new blood. If I'm careful, I don't think I'll have infertility problems.

In reply to Saladin, I want to breed a good line, to sell and show. And I want to keep it going for as long as possible. The main reason I want to breed is to actually sell SQ birds. I want more people to have access to good birds, not hatchery stock.

So some breeders sell their Sumatra Bantams for $25 apiece. This is waay too pricey for an ordinary chicken person. I'd sell my birds for $10-$15 apiece, which will spread a wonderful gene pool around. That's what I want to do.

 

[gallorojo]

Well, ultimately they are your birds to feed and care for, so if you are happy with them and the results you get from using your system, then that's what really matters, isn't it? I would love to hear back from you in 10 generations!! I will finally add that some breeds tolerate inbreeding a lot better than others do, and that my point of view is always biased by my working with a breed that does not tolerate inbreeding well. I can only advise you based on my own personal experiences, which i have done, so, I will go and I wish you the best!

 

[Chris09]

Frankly, I kinda disagree with all the guys who say my line will disappear.

I figure if I hatch 15 chicks a year, and cull 10 of them, I have 7 great birds that will make awesome breeding stock. Again, I hatch 25 the next year, cull again, and have 8 birds that are tip-top. Now I have 15 great birds. I can sell some, show some, breed some more, and in 10 generations or so, buy another pair from the original breeder, Akers, to introduce some new blood. If I'm careful, I don't think I'll have infertility problems.

In reply to Saladin, I want to breed a good line, to sell and show. And I want to keep it going for as long as possible. The main reason I want to breed is to actually sell SQ birds. I want more people to have access to good birds, not hatchery stock.

So some breeders sell their Sumatra Bantams for $25 apiece. This is waay too pricey for an ordinary chicken person. I'd sell my birds for $10-$15 apiece, which will spread a wonderful gene pool around. That's what I want to do.

25 bucks of bird or chicks?
I mean nothing by it but if you think that $25.00 apiece is too high for for a good adult chicken you are in the wrong hobby. (They do go a lot higher)


Chris