Inbreeding and Line-Breeding Poultry

[cleansquared]

Well im new to chicks but i just paid 100$ for 2 pol cream legbar hens and when we move i plan on getting 2 roos for another 50 she is holding them for me till we move.. So i really dont think 25$ is unreasonable for good breedng stock so good luck with your program here is my question.. The cream leg bar was brought over from the uk here so i think most lines ]all ive found so far] originated with greenfire farms.. So with the limited stock lines to work with what would be the best plan of action from such a breed.. so my idea was to start with these 4 and see what became of that and when i had enough i would order 4 more chicks 2 male 2 females straight from greenfire is this a good plan or should i stay with what ive got only one of my girls has the good cresting..

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Hi,

This thread is not very busy. Try reposting over on the Legbar thread.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/459044/the-legbar-thread
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[GaryDean26]

I am always on the Legbar thread, but came here today to look at breeding plans.

Yes, all the CLB stock in the USA is from Greenfire Farms. They have done three separate imports and are planning another.

Their first import or "A" flock is made up ot stock from two differnt blood lines, thier "B" flock is a rooster from a 3rd bloodline with hens from the first flock, and there "C" flock is a single pair from a bloodline unrealted to the their other imports.

The GFF lines are NOT a finished line. They are inconsistent in type, color, production, and about everything else. My plan is very different from 3rivers Sussex plan (which won't work since the CLB's need things fixed, not just maintained). The only stock I could get when I started were pullets from the "A" flock and a cockere from the "B" and a cockerel form the "C" flock. I built a trio and a pair the first year. I paired two pullets with the "B" cockerel and another with the "C" cockerel and hatch out as many chicks as I could. Since I am like 3rivers and have limited room I am using the 10% rule and only keeping one CLB for every 10 that I hatch. (I only hatch about 35 but only keep 3-4. I then repeat with the same pairing the next year if I needed to get a bigger group to sort through before moving forward to the next generation). I culled all 18 cockerels that I kept in the first year in favor of a better one that I was able to source from another breeder. Going forward I will not be breeding pullets back to thier sire (because that would mean pairing birds with like defects which would lock defects in rather than allow for them to be breed out). I have the two best foundation hens with the new cockerel and am swaping the keepers (two pullets from each pen) from the "B" line cockerel with the "C" line cockerel. I also have some pullets from the same breeder as the new cockerel, so I essencailly have four clans set up. I will return pullets to the same flock as their mother and pair cockerel from other clans to them. I basically will be yard breeding with some pair breeding/line breeding on the side to isolated any traits that I am looking for. I don't have the long experience that others on this thread do but hope that in 10 generation that I will be able to report back.

 

[BGMatt]

With your clan system you will want to rotate males in a set pattern. That's the only thing I saw in your writings that I would clarify.

The advantage of a clan system is you can keep your flock closed for longer periods of time, and with judicious culling it brings your entire flock up to higher standards.

A more "common" Line breeding (breeding pullets back to sire year after year) set up requires less breeding pens, and less males kept, and produces some truly outstanding specimens, however in my experiences you get a higher percentage of culls after a given number of years compared to the clan arrangement (in turn for arguably faster progress), but can run into the negative impacts of inbreeding in as little as three years.

Both ways have their place. I use common setups on popular breeds where new blood is easy to find, and clan setups on rare breeds where stock is harder to find.

 

[GaryDean26]

I am getting a little creative right now because there are defects in the two cockerel lines that I want to avoid introducing into the hen line and the there are strengths in the hen line that I want to introduce into both the cockerel lines.

The "color and comb" breeders have told me to cull the two cockerel lines and just work with the hen lines since it is the best representation of the of proposed APA SOP. The "animal scientist" group have told me to let all three blood lines mix together with out any culling for 3-4 years to let natural selection "acclimatize" the English stock to the Texas area before trying to do any type of improvements or line breeding citing that they have done just that with new imports to maximize the adaptations and hardiness of the flock. Sill the old school farmers, the geneticists, the show breeders, the hatcheries, etc. each have their own method for how they think things are best done.

I am tracking all the pairing (Dame & Sire) to make sure that I keep equal blood from all of my foundation birds in my breeding program. Some lines need a lot more work than others so I want to "grade" them up to the other line before I set up a set rotation. Keeping a deep gene pool seems a must since I want to be able to breed for as long as I can without having to bring in new blood, but I don't want to start at the lowest common denominator either. I prefer to keep the best line the best and use it to improve the other lines, then when I have 3-4 lines that I can live with I plan to start the systematic rotation. I have the knowledge (in theory, but not practice) of the various breeding plans that have been developed in the past 100 years. I am tracking the blood and trying to balance the pairing with the improvements. After a year of networking no one has been able to offer me a "means to all ends" plan so I am modifying what I have learned for everyone to try to focus on the strengths that I see in each of my birds with the diversity that I am trying to maintain to keep a deep gene pool.

Like I say...I hope to be able to report back in 10 years how things are going. I am sure I will learn a lot. Hopefully I am not headed towards any avoidable pitfalls.

 

[Michelle82]

I have been a chicken farmer for 8years and sell commercially. So here is my advise. Chickens are remarkably resistant to the effects of inbreeding and line breeding. Selecting for looks and especially vigour and growth speed is important. However if the breed is easily available and you can buy from unrelated good blood lines DO!! Buying roosters is easiest. Here is why I advise buying in new blood. Orpingtons before the ornamental trade took over the trade. A hen laid as many as 300 eggs a year. Now after tooooooo much inbreeding and line breeding and especially selection based on looks before vigour, growth rate and egg production the average Orpington in South Africa lays about 100 eggs a year.

Commercial farmers use F1 cross to produce eggs. This means they cross two pure breeds of layer chickens to get a F1 cross. These layer chickens have what is locally called bastered's power( a lot is lost in translation). It gives an annual increase in egg production of 45%. So when people talk about an increase in fertility it does not only translate into the fertility rate of your eggs. ( Say 60 of every 100 eggs has the potential to hatch), but MORE importantly it translates to increased egg production. ( Say instead of 90 eggs per year per hen you get 120eggs per year per hen.)

1.So breed your chickens get as many chicks as possible, mark birds that grow faster that the others - you want to keep those
2.Mark roosters that show their sex sooner than other roosters - probability of higher fertility + easier sex distinction can be transferred to future chicks
3.When buying in roosters try to select form a group at 6 weeks. It is the best time to look for above mentioned traits.

If you take your chickens seriously and your lovely little coop will make money and not just pay for their keep.

 

[saladin]

With your clan system you will want to rotate males in a set pattern. That's the only thing I saw in your writings that I would clarify.

The advantage of a clan system is you can keep your flock closed for longer periods of time, and with judicious culling it brings your entire flock up to higher standards.

A more "common" Line breeding (breeding pullets back to sire year after year) set up requires less breeding pens, and less males kept, and produces some truly outstanding specimens, however in my experiences you get a higher percentage of culls after a given number of years compared to the clan arrangement (in turn for arguably faster progress), but can run into the negative impacts of inbreeding in as little as three years.

Both ways have their place. I use common setups on popular breeds where new blood is easy to find, and clan setups on rare breeds where stock is harder to find.

One other option (with two different approaches) would be Grading.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Hi Michelle82,

Great educational post. So nice to hear from professional poultry people!
Thank you! I copies 1,2,3 for future reference.
Best Regards,
Karen in western PA, USA

 

[saladin]

Hi Michelle82,

Great educational post. So nice to hear from professional poultry people!
Thank you! I copies 1,2,3 for future reference.
Best Regards,
Karen in western PA, USA

Those three rules are not rules at all!
1. Growing fastest only counts in meat or dual purpose breeds. It's not necessarily a sign of anything else.
2. Rooster that show their sex sooner?????????????/ This is ridiculous. Hennies never show their sex at all. Another rule that has no basis in reality.
3. I'd never select breed stock from chicks that are a mere 6 weeks old! Again ridiculous. If buying cocks you need to see them when they are mature (1 to 2 years old: some breeds 3 years old). It also helps to be able to see there sire and dame.

Don't believe everything you read 3rivers. You will soon be in trouble.

 

[BGMatt]

I have been a chicken farmer for 8years and sell commercially. So here is my advise. Chickens are remarkably resistant to the effects of inbreeding and line breeding. Selecting for looks and especially vigour and growth speed is important. However if the breed is easily available and you can buy from unrelated good blood lines DO!! Buying roosters is easiest. Here is why I advise buying in new blood. Orpingtons before the ornamental trade took over the trade. A hen laid as many as 300 eggs a year. Now after tooooooo much inbreeding and line breeding and especially selection based on looks before vigour, growth rate and egg production the average Orpington in South Africa lays about 100 eggs a year.

Commercial farmers use F1 cross to produce eggs. This means they cross two pure breeds of layer chickens to get a F1 cross. These layer chickens have what is locally called bastered's power( a lot is lost in translation). It gives an annual increase in egg production of 45%. So when people talk about an increase in fertility it does not only translate into the fertility rate of your eggs. ( Say 60 of every 100 eggs has the potential to hatch), but MORE importantly it translates to increased egg production. ( Say instead of 90 eggs per year per hen you get 120eggs per year per hen.) 

1.So breed your chickens  get as many chicks as possible, mark birds that grow faster that the others - you want to keep those
2.Mark roosters that show their sex sooner than other roosters - probability of higher fertility + easier sex distinction can be transferred to future chicks
3.When buying in roosters try to select form a group at 6 weeks. It is the best time to look for above mentioned traits.

If you take your chickens seriously and your lovely little coop will make money and not just pay for their keep.  

Most of this has no bearing in reality as Saladin said.

FYI an Orpington should never come close to laying that, they are a dual purpose breed and the qualities that make better layers make worse meat animals and vice versa.

Back in the old days egg production was very low, a lot had to do with feeding as nutritional sciences have advanced so has production in all aspects of poultry. Genetics plays a role too, but it comes at the cost of losing breeds identities.

FYI, with proper line breeding you can increase productive qualities, not hinder them. Having to bring in new blood all the time is the sign of a bad breeder.