Inbreeding and Line-Breeding Poultry

[BlackPanther]

I have two Plymouth Rock roosters and several hens; they are half-brothers and sisters. Could you inform me as to the basic pros and cons of breeding them together? These are not intended to be show quality -- they are part of a dual-purpose working flock (working as in meaning they are intended to pay for their own upkeep

) but I do wish to stay close to the standard.
In addition, what are some of the big problems I could run into by doing this, and would any of them be helped by the addition of an unrelated rooster --I have one available-- further down the line?
(Sorry, bit of chatter-post, this.

)

Thanks!

 

[Fred's Hens]

I have two Plymouth Rock roosters and several hens; they are half-brothers and sisters. Could you inform me as to the basic pros and cons of breeding them together? These are not intended to be show quality -- they are part of a dual-purpose working flock (working as in meaning they are intended to pay for their own upkeep

) but I do wish to stay close to the standard.
In addition, what are some of the big problems I could run into by doing this, and would any of them be helped by the addition of an unrelated rooster --I have one available-- further down the line?
(Sorry, bit of chatter-post, this.

)

Thanks!

The several hens, I take it, are not Barred Rocks? In other words, they are barnyard mixes already?
Since you don't intend to breed anything to the Standard for any particular breed, line breeding wouldn't accomplish anything I could see. Could you breed these 1/2 siblings together? Why not. There's a lot genes at the deep end of the pool.

 

[BlackPanther]

The several hens, I take it, are not Barred Rocks? In other words, they are barnyard mixes already?
Since you don't intend to breed anything to the Standard for any particular breed, line breeding wouldn't accomplish anything I could see. Could you breed these 1/2 siblings together? Why not. There's a lot genes at the deep end of the pool.

Sorry if I wasn't particularly clear -- all the chickens I am considering using are Plymouth Rocks.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Sorry if I wasn't particularly clear -- all the chickens I am considering using are Plymouth Rocks.

Thanks for the clarification. Even if you're not presently focused on the SOP, consider that when the Barred Rock, the first Rock, was developed in the late 1800's, eventually the folks putting that composite breed together from Cochin, Dominique, etc had to finally come up with a clear vision for the breed. That's what a breed is. The leading folks of that period who were breeding the birds that would become the Barred Plymouth Rock had to say THIS is a Rock. And not THAT or THAT or THAT.

In other words they had a vision for the bird. True, hardy, egg layer, solid meat and barred. They finally got together and showed them. Huge throngs of folks who really needed a solid performer gave feed back and liked what they were seeing. Dozens of great breeders put those early BRs together and showed them all over the country at fairs and such. Finally, a consensus was arrived and those guys sat down and drafted a Standard. In that Standard they painstakingly defined and described the bird. They engraved prints and took lots of old Black and White photos. The breed has a huge hit with farmers and small holders everywhere. Then, they applied to the American Poultry Association to be accepted as a breed and presented their definition of the breed, known as the breed's Standard.

It is surprising, but the Standard has not really or substantively changed in over 100 years. The old Standard, printed in 1913 is online with Google Books and you can still read it free, online.

Long way to get to this. Unless you have in your mind's eye a vision for the Barred Rock, as defined and engraved in that old standard from over a century ago, the Barred Rock that those early creator's intended the bird to be? You cannot breed a Barred Rock. Unless birds are truly representative of that Standard they may be excellent, friendly and healthy birds, but they aren't Barred Rocks. Unless you know where you're headed, how do you set the GPS unit? Silly, I know, but the best I could come up with.

Not a blessed thing wrong in the whole wide world in making backyard birds that please you. Not a darn thing. Folks can toss a ball around and have lots of fun just screwing around or playing a made up game. We've all done that. But if you want to play Little League baseball or High School football or what have you, there are the rules of the game that make those things the games are.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I just re-read your post. I better understand now that you do wish to apply the Standard?

I apologize if I didn't get that clear. It's late and the brain starts to go sleepy.

Post up some photos of your birds, and we'd all be most glad to help you come to some conclusions and possible breeding matchups.

 

[Fred's Hens]

In short, breeding half brother and half sister, or breeding a cockerel back over his dam, or a pullet back under her sire is a common breeding strategy. The problem is that if the starting trio or quad used is way, way "off", this strategy isn't nearly as effective as it is when the foundational birds are high in quality and may, in fact, be counter productive.

If what one begins with is funky, then one is merely breeding funky to funky it just gets more funky. This is how bad traits like flat chest, high and pinched tails, bad barring, poor heads, excess feathering and other faults get stamped into offspring. If the foundational started stock share poor traits, the offspring really get stamped. One could breed such birds for a life time and not make much, if any, progress. This is what the old timer breeders tell all of us. Their advice is good.

 

[Michelle82]

Hallo -

Ok - So the chicken in the picture is not a Buff Orpington. Way back when I moved to the farm (more than a decade ago) there was a small chicken pin with chickens ( lots of different breeds only about one of each breed. There were Hyline, Amberlink, Sussexs, Rhode Island Red, White Leghorn with a gorgeous Buff Orpington Cock) All mixed, they were left for me by the previous owner. The chicken in the picture is that offspring. Almost the first chicken I've ever raised and the beginning of my love for chickens. That is why I chose the pic for my avatar, it was the beginning of a love affair. Only later did I learn of breed standards and show poultry.

Ok - next. Over here in the South Africa the Silver laced Wyandotte and Gold laced Wyandotte are very common. The blue laced and other colours not so much, but the silver and gold are common. I can buy a fertilized egg for R20 each. That's about 2 dollars. They are used as backyard chickens to lay eggs for the home. These are big chickens, not the bantam. Some are not of such great quality as one would wish for but that is a very small percentage. Mostly the breeders selling these eggs are registered breeders.

So on former glory. I have read historic accounts on farming records. Not as far back as the beginning of Orpingtons. Only about 100 to 150 years back here in my country were chicken farmers who claimed 300 eggs per hen for Orpingtons, but considering that the fancy Orpingtons I bought only gave about 90 eggs per hen per year. That sounded like a fable to me, but then I read several accounts of farmers in other countries who say their hens lay on average 200 eggs per year. So I decided to make egg production a priority. I also read account of the humble pekin laying 150 eggs per year.( this is a very short summary)

Now with the best production worst looks deadlock. It is a slippery slope indeed, I attempt to select excellent looking birds who have previously been tagged for other exceptional qualities. Keep them separate from the general flock and aim at the perfect bird as you call it. I have made great strides with my Orpingtons and Pekins in that regard. Sadly not all great qualities in a bird is transferred in it's genetics.

Your standard must be very high or different to the standards I was given. Perhaps you can refer me to a site that states the exact requirements per breed for the U.S. Here your bird has to meet the basic standards. Size, weight, build and feather. Then you need to be a registered breeder to enter the SA Show, from there your birds are judged. The standard is not a perfect bird. The best bird is determined by the judges. The winners are kept as prime breeding material and people pay a lot for their offspring.

As far as two different worlds. That is why I joined this site. I would not have known the worlds are that far apart if I didn't and I love chickens and if the selection methods for these other breeds are so very, very different than mine I want to learn. You might not be trying to be mean, but you are. You do however take the time to challenge me and it is appreciated. I think we both are very dedicated to attain the perfect bird. Our idea of what that perfect bird should be however seem to be worlds apart. Your method however, could be very valuable.

So if a chicken is common -- would you still go for line breeding and inbreeding and ruthless culling oppose to buying in blood? You say production oppose show quality breeding. Have you ever tried it ?

 

[Fred's Hens]

Michelle82

Recently, the Orpington was the subject of an intensive breed specific, Standard bred bird discussion over at CSU. That is an educational thread here on BYC. The breed, Orpington, was covered very, very well and quite thoroughly. There, you'll see some of the very best Orps in member's photos and a wonderful discussion of the breed and a discussion of the slight variances in the US Standard and the English Standard.

It begins here, if you are interested : https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/732985/csu-chicken-state-university-large-fowl-sop/840

 

[Fred's Hens]

It is my view that the Standard written in each country for the breed share 98% of the descriptions and goals for any breed. The differences between say an English Standard, a Dutch Standard or an American Standard is relatively few as opposed to the enormous amount of agreement. That is important, I think.

The vast, vast majority of the chickens on the face of the earth are commercial birds, meat strains and egg strains. Billions and billion of them producing the world's food. Thus, the vast, vast majority of the birds alive on the earth are no breed at all. They are various and sundry commercial blends, hybrids and mixes. They are studiously bred by the various industries to serve their purposes.

The number of bred to Standard, identifiable, clearly bred to display the "breed" constitute a small, minute portion of the birds alive today.

 

[cleansquared]

http://www.bufforpington.co.uk/chickens.html
On this thread this poultry person who is a member of the uk group troup (time to restore our utility poultry ) has a disscussion on how breeding the orp for shows they have gotten bigger in frame and bone instead of putting on weight for meat this would be an example of show quality undermining the origional purpose of the bird to be for meat and eggs... I firmly believe you can try to maintain or come close to the sop and still select for utility traits what im saying is they would not be your fancy show birds... There does not seem to be much selection for utility in this country( usa) as most people want chickens they can take to shows and by the way your commercial leghorn strains were created not in this country ..isa whites and browns im not sure where some of the others such as shaver were created as its all been cannabalised by isa i guess that is however a good example of what can happen if these started out as leghorns how far away from the sop of leghorn they are surley there can be some kind of middleground where it is still recognisable as a breed just not the perfect show chicken but productive in one way or another....