Integration Inquiry

[Laughing Raven]

Hello Fellow Flock Members,
I'm a greenhorn with regards to chickens, but, a pretty well read one, I think. However, I have been reading mixed information on several topics. I would like to present 2 of of my most confusing questions (for me that is).

1.) I know that our grand parents for many generations raised chickens, ducks, geese and turkeys together and obviously things went pretty well, all things considered. Well, I've been sorting through a lot of information that goes both ways on this being practiced nowadays. My question is this: I am getting my first flock of chickens in the next month or so and I would also like to get 3 or 4 turkey poults to raise for our Thanksgiving for my family, the neighbor I'm splitting the chicken flock with and for the landlord. I plan to have a large enough coop for the SLW's I am getting as well as the turkeys I'd like to get.
Why do I keep reading that, on one hand, yes, you CAN safely raise turkeys and chickens together, BUT on the flip side, there are as many articles/experts saying it is NOT a good idea to raise them together for various reasons. Who is right.?

2.) Eventually, down the line, I would like to add some sort of Bantams and/ or Silkies to my flock. Will the standard size hens harass the Bantams to death or can I introduce them slowly like one would with new pullets and have them be fine.?

Sorry about such huge varied questions but, I trust your replies since every single website I've gone to says to come to you for advice. lol Thank you ahead of time for any and all information you can give me.

Sincerely,
Jodi

 

[chooks4life]

Hello Fellow Flock Members,
I'm a greenhorn with regards to chickens, but, a pretty well read one, I think. However, I have been reading mixed information on several topics. I would like to present 2 of of my most confusing questions (for me that is).

1.) I know that our grand parents for many generations raised chickens, ducks, geese and turkeys together and obviously things went pretty well, all things considered. Well, I've been sorting through a lot of information that goes both ways on this being practiced nowadays. My question is this: I am getting my first flock of chickens in the next month or so and I would also like to get 3 or 4 turkey poults to raise for our Thanksgiving for my family, the neighbor I'm splitting the chicken flock with and for the landlord. I plan to have a large enough coop for the SLW's I am getting as well as the turkeys I'd like to get.

Why do I keep reading that, on one hand, yes, you CAN safely raise turkeys and chickens together, BUT on the flip side, there are as many articles/experts saying it is NOT a good idea to raise them together for various reasons. Who is right.?

Both are right. About different family lines of birds.

To explain: the birds you refer to our ancestors raising were mostly reared in inclusive environments, where severely intolerant birds who killed other birds were culled because they were costing the families precious food sources. Intolerance was culled out, not bred on.

Modern birds, at least those you're likely to buy from mass hatchery situations, are often reared in separate environments for generations, so they lose both normal social instincts regarding their own kind, as well as tolerance for other kinds. Intolerance has been bred on, not culled out.

If you continually separate males and females of any species for generation after generation, they will lose instincts about one another. Violence and intolerance is the usual result. The same thing happens when you separate adults from younger ones, different breeds or species from one another, etc.

So, whether they will get along or won't, depends mainly on what immediate ancestry they have. That's why both groups are right, at least about a percentage of the equation.

Since you'll likely be getting your turkeys from a non-free-range background, chances are they will be unpredictable at best, intolerant killers at worst, and even if they seem ok, keep a close eye on them as when turkeys turn on other birds, they generally do not 'turn back' --- from then onwards it is a permanently bad state of affairs. They get into killing mode and get stuck there even if they were fine for years before.

It will help you if you talk to all breeders, no matter the species, before you buy and ask if, for example, their birds get along with babies & other adults, if they're human-aggressive, cannibalistic, etc, and if the answers are 'yes' then chances are yours will be that way too, even if they try to pass it off as 'all birds are cannibalistic if they don't have enough protein' (NOT true) or 'all males are violent to humans/babies/females' (also NOT true) or any other of the common 'reasons' people use to explain away violent behavior traits in their animals.

2.) Eventually, down the line, I would like to add some sort of Bantams and/ or Silkies to my flock. Will the standard size hens harass the Bantams to death or can I introduce them slowly like one would with new pullets and have them be fine.?

Nobody can actually give you any guaranteed-correct answer here, because we don't know what background your birds are coming from. Also, all birds are individuals. They can and do make up their own minds. A large hen who has always been fine with banties may one day take a dislike to one in particular and that may be the end of that peaceful period. Your banties may also take a dislike to larger fowl and harass them. There's no guarantees either way.

Introductions done slowly are a good idea and can often be of great help, but if any of your birds are severely intolerant, or bullies, or cannibalistic, then culling them is the only thing that will work permanently, it really doesn't matter what else you do.... Short of tactics like debeaking or kinder but still time consuming ones like using spectacles, or permanent segregation which I'm guessing you really don't want to do.

Ideally, cull vicious birds, whether cull means rehome or kill, because if you want a self-sustaining/replacing flock that's tolerant, you need to breed for this, which means not breeding vicious birds as it is strongly heritable.

Best wishes with growing a peaceful flock, it is entirely achievable and definitely worth the initial effort and culling process. Done right in the first place it will last throughout the generations and you won't have to keep separating injured birds or dealing with social problems among them.

 

[centrarchid]

The integrated part I grew up with involved free-ranged birds at lower densities than realized in coops and runs but the birds had a lot of area they could cover. Additionally, other species like ruminants, horses and dogs provided some combination of accessible habitat, foraging opportunities and protection. We never kept the ormamental breeds in such an arrangement in part because they were more delicate and did not provide economic / cullinary benefits.

 

[Laughing Raven]

Thank you chooks4life and centrarchid. I appreciate both of your answers.
chooks4life - I appreciate the indepth answer you took the time and effort to write. It all makes excellent sense. It has also helped me decide on how I plan to keep to keep the 2 types of chickens I've decided to have now and in my future flock. Because I want to get to a point where I am breeding show quality stock in standard and and Bantam sizes, I drew up plans for a duplex coop to house both. With a good background in drafting and design it wasn't too difficult for me. lol I've drawn up a coop that will, sort of, house both flocks safely at night with a door between the big girls and the little girls, along with large runs for both sides and all easily accessible for all work/cleaning tasks.
As far as the turkeys go, well, I've always been sort of nervous around grown turkeys so I'm thinking that, even though home raised would likely be more tasty, I will probably just get one of those 'plastic feathered' ones. lol As much as I would like to raise my own so I know what they are fed and that they will have better flavor, I think my fear would probably just feed their aggression if, in fact, I end up with aggressive turkeys. I will probably just get the Coturnix quail my husband is fascinated with and use what room I had intended to use for the turkeys to house and make a run for them.
Thank you again.

centrarchid, thank you very much for your effort as well. I can totally relate to what you had to say. A bad attitude is a bad attitude any way you look at it. My hens will be egg providers and hopefully breeders of future show stock and with all the nasty critters already around here that I have to worry about, attitudes is one I don't want to deal with.
Again, I appreciate the time you took to answer my question.

Sincerely,
Jodi

 

[chooks4life]

chooks4life - I appreciate the indepth answer you took the time and effort to write. It all makes excellent sense. It has also helped me decide on how I plan to keep to keep the 2 types of chickens I've decided to have now and in my future flock. Because I want to get to a point where I am breeding show quality stock in standard and and Bantam sizes, I drew up plans for a duplex coop to house both. With a good background in drafting and design it wasn't too difficult for me. lol I've drawn up a coop that will, sort of, house both flocks safely at night with a door between the big girls and the little girls, along with large runs for both sides and all easily accessible for all work/cleaning tasks.

You're welcome, hope your plans work out. They sound good. You can never have too many cages. Even when planning to integrate you'll always end up needing a separate cage, for whatever... Emergencies, broodies, convalescents, quarantines, etc.

Too many people don't realize how many cages one free ranging flock can end up needing for these special cases, and they always end up in a bit of a desperate situation where they face losing an animal because they don't have a setup allowing them to separate it. Always the dog-crate or box in the laundry, lol... It can work but ideally they should have dedicated little cages for such cases. Even if you have two good coops, some quite small and easily moved hospital/broody/quarantine cages are ideal to have, they can be lifesavers. Sometimes the issue is solved by simply letting them sleep outside the main coop, letting them free range daily from their little cage. If you don't plan to free range them, it can still help a lot of situations to have the little cages on hand.

As far as the turkeys go, well, I've always been sort of nervous around grown turkeys so I'm thinking that, even though home raised would likely be more tasty, I will probably just get one of those 'plastic feathered' ones. lol As much as I would like to raise my own so I know what they are fed and that they will have better flavor, I think my fear would probably just feed their aggression if, in fact, I end up with aggressive turkeys. I will probably just get the Coturnix quail my husband is fascinated with and use what room I had intended to use for the turkeys to house and make a run for them.
Thank you again.

I'd expect you're right about your fear feeding any of their bad behavior if you did get some turkeys, it's a definite possibility. Bullies aren't often too species specific, it's a way of thinking and living for most of them and they can and do apply it to the world at large. Turkeys can be sweet-natured but they are the moodiest birds I've ever owned, and they can change from being sweet to vicious more easily than most species I've dealt with, and they hold grudges like geese often do, too.

I found turkeys to be plenty of trouble myself, having gone through multiple generations of a few different family lines by now. The people who kept human-aggressive ones sold me birds who produced human-aggressive turkeys, the people who kept chicken-aggressive ones sold me turkeys who became problems with their attitudes towards chickens (even if they were raised under them), and the most socially balanced turkey line I got was unfortunately incredibly inbred and weak, and near-infertile.

They'd been raised on a lush farm but kept in small dirt floored cages, obviously for many generations, so when the chicks hatched they did not recognize anything natural as food. Only things that looked like crumble. It was a bizarre issue and took me a while to figure out why they weren't eating, and what form they would accept food in, while they starved in the midst of plenty. This familial line lasted the least amount of time of all of the families. Since turkeys are hard to get where I am, I persisted with them despite their issues, trying to breed out rather than cull out any behaviors that weren't too severe, but really it was a waste of time overall.

All of these negative traits persisted stubbornly throughout generations of careful breeding, but randomly, so they'd just show up in descendants even if the parents had stopped showing the grandparent's behavioral traits... That's been my experience with behavior in general across many species.

I've seen great turkeys, socially peaceful ones too, I just need to get some to breed, easier said than done around here. But if they're known to be aggressive to people or people are afraid of them, that's a bad idea. I haven't given up on turkeys yet, because I'm sure it's just the family lines. I knew they had problems before I got them.

Quail eggs are very healthy (depending on their diet of course) and ideal for some people, definitely a viable alternative. They look like decent little livestock. No matter how much room you have for turkeys they can be very fussy about it, and about their flockmates, and very noisy as well, so quail are probably the best choice for your situation if room is restricted or you don't plan to free range them... Though free ranging them doesn't solve all problems either.

Best wishes with your poultry breeding/keeping endeavors.

 

[Laughing Raven]

chooks4life...
I came up with an idea regarding the turkeys. lol
I'm going to go ahead and build a separate run for them and I know where I can get a huge old dog house I can sanitize and put vents in and make it safe. It should hold 3 of the 4 I'd like to get and I just found a local who sells poults that are Narragansett and he gave me references to call and everyone said they were the sweetest turkeys ever.
Part 2 is - The husband gets to take care of them after they reach a really big size because he isn't scared of great huge birds like I tend to be. LOL Win - win. We get home raised turkey for Thanksgiving and I don't have to do anything except plan their diets and treats and dictate ( yes, I meant dictate LOL) how and when their pen is cleaned and where they will graze during the day.
I've come to the conclusion that THAT will work out just fine. Plus, the turkeys won't be in contact with my sweet lil' chooks and do them any sort of harm. I told my husband we would find him a tennis racket for self-defense against the monsters he will be caring for, but, I really hope they turn out to be as sweet as everyone said this line is. I'd really like to get over my fear because I think it's just silly of me. lol
Thanks for reading/responding, it's nice to have someone knowledgeable to talk to and/or bounce ideas off. I appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Jodi

 

[chooks4life]

Sounds good, turkey flesh and eggs are really worth it in my opinion.

How good that the person gave you references for their birds! Now that's a breeder who is sure of their product. Wish I could find someone like that...

Turkeys can be very sweet pets, they like affection too, if they're raised by hand. If your breeder gives them good references, I'd expect you're off to a great start.

Best wishes with it.

 

[Laughing Raven]

Thank you

I asked him if he would keep the poults for a week on his next hatch, which is in a couple months and he said that would be fine. I asked for that so he could get a decent start on them for me and I told him that's why I wanted him to do that. He also said the same as you, that if they are hand raised they are much easier to get along with and work with, so, who knows, I may get over my fear with these.

I looked up the Narragansett and they are really nice looking. I'm a big fan of the wild look turkeys and these totally fit the bill. We have wild turkeys around here and they're gorgeous. I hope they are nice birds.
It won't hurt them to handle them regularly, by which I mean, every time I go out to check on them while they're still in the brooder pen. Or would that put too much stress on their little psyches.? I actually want to raise my chicks and these poults in a way that they like to be handled like that so that it will make health checks easier, but I don't want to stress them out and have them die on me, know what I mean.?
Anyway, I hope I'm not bugging you too much and I really appreciate all the time and info you have provided me.

Sincerely,
Jodi

 

[chooks4life]

Thank you

I asked him if he would keep the poults for a week on his next hatch, which is in a couple months and he said that would be fine. I asked for that so he could get a decent start on them for me and I told him that's why I wanted him to do that. He also said the same as you, that if they are hand raised they are much easier to get along with and work with, so, who knows, I may get over my fear with these.

I looked up the Narragansett and they are really nice looking. I'm a big fan of the wild look turkeys and these totally fit the bill. We have wild turkeys around here and they're gorgeous. I hope they are nice birds.
It won't hurt them to handle them regularly, by which I mean, every time I go out to check on them while they're still in the brooder pen. Or would that put too much stress on their little psyches.?

If they're young enough to be in a brooder pen they're still at the age when they are largely relying on others to tell them what to be afraid of and what to trust, generally speaking. If your visits are always associated with something positive that will be their main perception of you and they will lose fear steadily as you keep visiting, and when you do, good things keep happening, and bad things don't happen. Simple formula, only very human-averse animals don't subscribe to that one.

Personally with poultry I have found that no matter what you do to them, it's more important how the interaction ends, not how it begins or what is done to them, even if it's painful.

The end result is what they rely on to tell them if a situation was good or bad.

If you're calm, and at least sound kind even if you're for example causing pain by tending a wound, and it always ends positively, they should come to trust you. You're already one step ahead because of the breeders' care with their parents and them. Poultry in general are far tougher than common public opinion on them states, even babies and eggs, lol!

I actually want to raise my chicks and these poults in a way that they like to be handled like that so that it will make health checks easier, but I don't want to stress them out and have them die on me, know what I mean.?

If the brooder is big enough you can sit in there with them and hold food in your hands, some special treat (doesn't have to be anything fancy or unhealthy, for example they like watermelon); just let them come to you and climb onto you. Perching is pretty natural even in cage raised birds, they have an urge to climb in most cases, and they will probably choose to perch on you, and as they grow to trust you they'll fall asleep on you. Turkeys are easier to acclimate to petting than chickens on average. At first they will probably only hand-feed for a while before they view you as a non-threat. But they're not wild, they're already pretty used to humans, and so have their ancestors been, so it should be much easier to tame them as the groundwork has been done. Even wild birds tame rapidly if the circumstances are right, and they're very unlikely to die of heart attacks as per popular literature.

If you talk to them in a way they can become accustomed to the meaning of, this will help. Like if you have a food call for them, and you repeat it as they see you, as they approach, and as they eat so soon enough they get the idea of what it means. They can learn other species' vocal communications by tone, but then again basically every animal can, because tone tells you if there is anger or pain or calm, even if you don't understand the species.

Turkeys generally like being stroked along the back of the neck where the feathers are, quite often they will get sleepy and when they close their eyes, their heads will just fall down, it's funny.

You would also need to watch how they respond to your body language so you can avoid giving incorrectly aggressive or confrontational signals. Some birds don't respond to humans like that but some will shy away from any direct movement towards them, so with some skittish or non-tame animals I would make sure I walk past them on angles, not directly towards, and even stop and let them pass if we meet in a cage door. It generally only takes a few repeats of this scenario before the animals understand I don't intend them harm, and by showing this consideration you've made significant gains towards taming them as they're no longer bolting away from you expecting to be trampled, or feeling like you're threatening them.

The extra care shown initially means later on, when in a hurry, I can rush past them, and literally step over them, and they won't feel victimized. Some animals can develop aggressive or neurotic complexes over a mere perception of being victimized; if you inadvertently startle any animals, it usually helps to talk to them calmly, to let them know it wasn't intentional. Even the least intelligent animals tend to understand that, and stop fleeing in fear for their lives. If you let them flee in an unjustified panic, and do nothing to reassure them, they take that as confirmation that you were charging at them with intent to harm and only their headlong flight to freedom saved them from this harm. Obviously not the idea you want them to have, lol! If you do find you've accidentally scared them, just stop, talk calmly to them till they show they are listening, and then calmly carry on with your business, whatever you were doing.

I'm a firm believer in the time spent to tame livestock contributing to their quality of life and their health, since low stress is higher health. It's needlessly unfortunate when people have a basically wild 'domestic' bird needing help which they can't help because nobody ever handled it, so being helped is too stressful for it to cope with. Some people will tell you "I prefer them wild so when they let me pick them up, I know for sure that they're sick" --- but by the time a terrified animal lets you do that it is generally too late to help it.

Anyway, I hope I'm not bugging you too much and I really appreciate all the time and info you have provided me.

Sincerely,
Jodi

You're not bugging me, usually I'm the one bugging people with too much info, LOL!

One thing I really didn't find helpful as a beginner is the way information is often delivered as "A + B = C --- and don't worry about why."

I have found pursuing the 'why' more helpful than just blindly obeying the random snippets of facts that are handed out, and I try to share the info to save others time. A world of better animal husbandry benefits all of humanity, I believe. We all get a level up and of course it helps the animals too. Healthier livestock means healthier humans.

One example of the 'why' being so vitally important is a lesson I learned the hard way. Ancient tomes on poultry mention culling all birds with non-straight leg scale patterns. Why? The 'why' was not shared. Since this info was in show bird breeding publications, I guessed maybe it was some arbitrary show-bird preference. Utilitarian breeding info I found never mentioned leg scales.

So I ended up breeding birds with twisting leg scale patterns, harder to avoid than not because so many breeds have been severely inbred at some point or another. This is especially true for countries like mine, where poultry imports were banned early into our nation's history.

Long story short, my chicks started hatching with genetic spraddling, being unable to keep their legs under them for long. This is because the leg scales indicate the underlying structures, and the twist of the leg scales indicates the twist of the bones and so forth. There are all manner of severity, and both acceleration and stasis of that trait. I had to do a lot of culling to sort that issue out. Most people still don't know this and are breeding on genetic spraddlers generation after generation. Most people only know about deficiency-caused spraddling and injury-caused spraddling, the genetic spraddling is still likelier than not to elicit surprise or disbelief.

Not a serious issue when you can treat them and keep them in a cage for life, but a serious issue for a baby who is expected to free range and follow its mother, since they can take over a week to be able to walk without suffering, and this obviously sets them back in development and health.

You're more than welcome to pick my brains for anything, I'm not an expert but I have some general hands-on experience which can save some people a lot of wasted time, resources and lives just because they won't have to find out the hard way like most beginners do.

The poultry manuals are full of interesting information which often doesn't help with the actual practical experience of it, like when one is dealing with brooding eggs under a hen, where the most common advice in books, on blogs etc is still 'let nature do its thing' as though all hens have complete maternal instinct. It's common knowledge some breeds don't have any maternal instinct; yet most people don't seem to know that there are varying degrees of instincts. It's not as well known as it should be that instinct is malleable and able to be bred out, so plenty of people end up with useless broodies and dead chicks, blindly trusting to nature and well-meaning information sources.

Anyway, best wishes with your flock. I have a suspicion you're going to love your turkeys.

 

[Laughing Raven]

Chooks,
I have decided you are my poultry guru.!

LOL
But, seriously, everything you've told me has made complete sense. It especially makes sense because I used to train horses and the exact same approach applies to them. It is an animal with a lot more intelligence and size, but I agree with everything you have told me. I am ecstatic that you like to talk a lot, too, because so do I. lol
I'm thinking I may get over my fear of the turkeys if I handle them a lot speak sweet and all that. I have a very hard time being firm with such small delicate animals and I think that it will help me build up a friendly flock. Using a different tone of voice for each area of care is a great idea for tone training, I did the same with my horse training. Obviously, everything I learned and used on the horses will probably work out excellent if applied on a smaller scale to my chickens and turkeys and it will give me the confidence to feed and care for them all by myself. Consistency works well on everything from ids to animals and I should have thought more about that, but, like I said, these are my first flocks.
Now, when I think of my new venture in poultry I am even more excited because I have you to ask advice about when I'm confused and the confidence it will all help build will aid me in my endeavor to eventually breed my own line of show quality chickens. I just can't wait.! lol

I am also considering going into rabbits for meat and show. One of my best friends was a breeder of show quality meat breed rabbits and I have him right next door so he won't be too far and will be helping choosing/raising the initial breeding stock. My husband also knows a decent amount about them also and he won't desert me. lol

My sons girlfriend and I will be the ones taming everything down so it's easier to handle for health checks, etc However, I have made it abundantly clear that, come time to butcher my lovelies I will be gone for as long as it takes to kill them but I will be back in time to cut and wrap. I just don't want to see them die...I mean, I know what we're raising them for and all that...still. Call me a softy or a wimp, but, I believe my part will be the overall care and assurance that they are all raised gently, lovingly and with their health the utmost important thing. That being said, it will all work out in the end.

Oohhh, I wanted to tell you I got 2 books on raising chickens from my son for Mother's Day - Raising Chickens for Dummies and Storey's Guide to Raising Poultry, both of which were on my wish list ( lol and the only 2 he could find that weren't online). I was wondering what you thought of his/my choices as my first 2 reference books. I plan to order a couple books by Gail Damerow in the near future as I've been told she has very informative books that are easy to relate to.

That's it for the moment. lol The next time I have a question/idea I will absolutely be talking to you. Again, I have to say I'm very happy to have you to bounce things off as EVERYBODY in my household is at the end of their rope about me talking about chickens. lol I really think my husband is just humoring me at this point and he definitely has the patience of a saint when I get obsessed over something. LOL

Your Friend,
Jodi