Interesting article in Science

[chickened]

I am afraid some people just enjoy beating others and no drug or study is going to change that behavior. A fit punishment for the crime would seem cheaper and more effective. Illness is not an excuse for committing a violent crime only a term given to what is thought to be a cause for bad choices. Flip Wilson said it best "The devil made me do it".

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[Meara]

Chickened wrote: I am afraid some people just enjoy beating others and no drug or study is going to change that behavior.
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It's not that simple. Why does one person "enjoy" doing such a thing and another not? Unraveling the cause behind the action is what scientists do. Not only is it fascinating work, but there are myriad applications that can better human life.

Thanks punk-a-doodle for such a cogent explanation of how certain parts of scientific research work.​

 

[punk-a-doodle]

To me, it is similar to the case of saying, "abstinence is what we need to cure teen pregnancy". Statistics clearly show that shaming and punishment only go so far. I prefer solutions that actually have great impact over less or non-effective punishments for the sake of holding onto black and white ideals. There is too much research out there showing links in various brain abnormalities/differences and genes to certain behaviors or patterns of behavior for me to not back that avenue of study. We have already made leaps and bounds in understanding the human mind, which is why we now medicate people with issues such as schizophrenia, rather than assume a demon or beneficial spirit is working through their body. Well, overall within our culture at least.

I look forward to seeing society continue to learn about what drives behavior and development, and to continue forward with a less vengeful and limited outlook.

Meara: No problem. Research is such a wide ranging topic, and includes processes that are not very publicly accessible or known about. Definitely makes me happy when I see so many scientists striving to change that by doing things like fighting for easier public access to free published studies.

 

[chickened]

Science has had a long time in trying to unravel the human mind and always seems to contradict previous findings. The jails are not getting smaller. The problem is not in the head but the heart. They know right from wrong and do it anyhow. Like I said it appeals to them. Spending someone elses' research money does make a nice niche for that education one buys though. Loving one another makes a better human life also. It really is that simple IMO if you put your trust in the one that made you.
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It's not that simple. Why does one person "enjoy" doing such a thing and another not? Unraveling the cause behind the action is what scientists do. Not only is it fascinating work, but there are myriad applications that can better human life.

Thanks punk-a-doodle for such a cogent explanation of how certain parts of scientific research work.

 

[zooarch]

People used to think that the world was flat. Then new findings contradicted that. I agree that results from scientific studies are confusing, but I find that it is typically because the background knowledge isn't explicitly stated there to evaluate the findings. If you did a literature review of similar studies then you would be able to evaluate between two opposing arguments. Nobody has the time to do that and the job of conveying the information is supposed to be the science journalists, but I find that they often don't do that and instead focus on random or misleading points of the study so that it is attention grabbing. This is all IMO and I'll openly admit to being biased because I'm a grad student, an academic, and a scientist, but without studies like this an understanding of human behavior would be greatly lacking. Often times all the studies that don't seem to make sense are building the knowledge so that a larger conclusion can be drawn. You also need to have these developmental studies to add to the qualitative studies that focus on behavior. Nature versus Nurture should often be stated Nature and Nurture.

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It's not that simple. Why does one person "enjoy" doing such a thing and another not? Unraveling the cause behind the action is what scientists do. Not only is it fascinating work, but there are myriad applications that can better human life.

Thanks punk-a-doodle for such a cogent explanation of how certain parts of scientific research work.

 

[scratch'n'peck]

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Effective prevention of violence and criminal behavior is generally a less expensive approach than punishment after the fact. Way more tax payer money goes toward prisons than scientific research. I don't think the main purpose of scientific research into behavior is to provide excuses for criminal behavior (even though the way studies are portrayed in the popular media may send that message). I am not saying this because the particular study mentioned in this thread necessarily provides a lot of answers for preventing child abuse. I am just questioning the mind set that investing money in the prison system has much of a pay off for society. Yes, once crimes are committed, the criminal justice system needs to provide consequences. But investing in research and public policy can have cost saving benefits and provide answers that benefit society in the long run.

 

[AquaEyes]

Some people prefer to just keep it simple because that's as far as they wish (or are able) to understand things -- he did bad things because he's bad, and that's all. Others want to know why. Good luck getting people from the first camp to agree with the second.

 

[chickened]

I would agree with you in theory but putting that principal that science "discovered" in action would involve intervention prior to committing the crime and that is where the answer is... which science cannot reveal. Shall we lock them up until they blow a fuse? force them to take some training that may or may not work? how exactly would someone implement the plan? or is the study of knowledge more for the ego than the practical? There is a pivotal time and circumstance when someone makes the choice to do violent crime and the motives behind those crimes only encourage that bad decision. This thinking about why people commit crimes has been studied much longer than anyone living really knows and it is mere speculation at best for if it were science it would be backed up by positive facts and unfortunately science has been broadened to encompass theory or guesses as facts these days. Science has proven that not everything can be supported by fact but still exists. (wind, gravity and other natural phenomenons why the earth rotates, why the direction is does rotate, why the axis is tilted for a few examples.) In most cases simple works which is why we have punishment. Some are just slow learners or need to be hit a little harder than the next, figuratively speaking.

Ask yourself if you would accept the conditions you put on your dog for instance to keep them from harm like getting hit on the road. What person would stay given a choice under those conditions, shock collar, fence, etc, etc. Prison is for the safety of society AND the criminal.

scratch'n'peck :

Quote:
Effective prevention of violence and criminal behavior is generally a less expensive approach than punishment after the fact. Way more tax payer money goes toward prisons than scientific research. I don't think the main purpose of scientific research into behavior is to provide excuses for criminal behavior (even though the way studies portrayed in the popular media may send that message). I am not saying this because the particular study mentioned in this thread necessarily provides a lot of answers for preventing child abuse. I am just questioning the mind set that investing money in the prison system has much of a pay off for society. Yes, once crimes are committed, the criminal justice system needs to provide consequences. But investing in research and public policy can have cost saving benefits and provide answers that benefit society in the long run.​

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Science has proven that not everything can be supported by fact but still exists. (wind, gravity and other natural phenomenons why the earth rotates, why the direction is does rotate, why the axis is tilted for a few examples.

I'm not going to digress into diverse issues like prison systems and related topics too far (though would be happy to bring them to a thread devoted to that topic), but since science is central to this discussion, I'll pull this out. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. There are definitely facts and observable properties that back up all the things you mentioned.

Some people prefer to just keep it simple because that's as far as they wish (or are able) to understand things -- he did bad things because he's bad, and that's all.

Aye, I know all too many like that, but most of them fall into the "that's as far as they wish" to go category. I used to be there back when I was raised to be that way. It was beyond hard and uncomfortable moving past those mental blocks and letting the false comfort and self-riteousness/assuredness of the black and white go. Such a beautiful world out there when you can see it more fully though.

You would have been on my "list of people who are bad" when I was a pre-teen Aqua. And, I probably would have honestly liked you as a person at the same time, but cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing.​

 

[chickened]

You didn't answer the question about the dog.

The whole point seems mute if the remedy offered by science is unpalatable or the enforcement would violate basic human rights (injecting some chemical in a person that fits the profile of a child abuser- ACLU would have a ball with that one.)
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I'm not going to digress into diverse issues like prison systems and related topics too far (though would be happy to bring them to a thread devoted to that topic), but since science is central to this discussion, I'll pull this out. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. There are definitely facts and observable properties that back up all the things you mentioned.

Some people prefer to just keep it simple because that's as far as they wish (or are able) to understand things -- he did bad things because he's bad, and that's all.

Aye, I know all too many like that, but most of them fall into the "that's as far as they wish" to go category. I used to be there back when I was raised to be that way. It was beyond hard and uncomfortable moving past those mental blocks and letting the false comfort and self-riteousness/assuredness of the black and white go. Such a beautiful world out there when you can see it more fully though.

You would have been on my "list of people who are bad" when I was a pre-teen Aqua. And, I probably would have honestly liked you as a person at the same time, but cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing.​