International Black Copper Marans Thread - Breeding to the SOP

[Chooks man]

Quote:
No much to tell from this photos . can you try better ones please so we can comment on it . chooks man

 

[Chooks man]

Here is more of Jake. I am planning on breeding him, his personality is stellar, among other things. His son will be a show bird for my daughter in 4h if nothing else.

Jake has many quality except his comb . I like his silver as pure as it should be .
do the birchen pullet with a nicer hackle is his daugther? between them you can produce a better colored birchen, fix the silver first than go to the comb after that .

chooks man

 

[Chooks man]

Quote:
the white on the black feathers is not just a genetic accumulation of cross over genes is caused as well by health and stress too . if we breed from a darker stock ( not Penguin type at hatch ) and less white or none if possible of a white feathers at young age than we can eradicate the parasitic white . the face of a pure and clean black copper chick should be free from any white . easy to say that because there is not many lines of black copper/Birchen/Blue copper/Silver cuckoo marans world wide free from this parasitic white . need serious breeders with a determine attitude and years of breeding . first we need to find this subject ,than isolate them .than multiply them in the end start breeding them . most of this true black copper marans stock are culled by ignorance of they breeders ,witch they focused on the Penguin type . I have both chicks hatching now . from all the ER variety . I m observing they differences . there are some with a pure black and short hatch down almost black other are Penguin but with less white marking on they faces the third group are the penguin type with almost a white face or too much white . I ll see how each one of this will feather up as a adult chooks man

 

[Red Banks]

Quote:

Post 1407 on this thread describes how to post pictures. It will help us to critique your rooster and you will be able to clearly how the comments apply to your bird. Thank you for posting.

 

[3riverschick]

Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. ...
ByCard, Wetherell Henry.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Hi,
Look at the pale comb and wattles and the washed-out eye on this cock. According to those symptoms, ithe bird looks needy. The comb and wattles should be bright orange and the eye should be reddish bay, not washed out. There is white on the face. Marans don't have white on their face. The comb is a disheveled mess. It should be upright with the correct number of spikes in the proper place. They're not. Unless these problems are health related, and can be fixed, I wouldn't use this cock on a bet. Try worming him and give him Poultry Nutri-Drench in his water. (should look like weak tea). Plus sprout some forage oats for him and give him one cubic inch a day of 4-7 day old forage oat sprouts. I use Plotspike Forage oats I get from Tractor Supply. Not feed oats, forage oats. They will boost his system and help him create more robust sperm. Maybe that will give his comb and wattles color? Give the same to the hens. It will help bring them into lay.
Best,
Karen
You know your cock is at least 1/2 the flock. maybe more. Why not just go get a real nice older cock. Maybe 2-3 years old. From a top line like Little Peddler. I mean this cock should be the symbol of correct Marans breed type. Pay or him. All you can afford.
1.Then breed him to your pullets.
2. Breed the daughters from breeding number 1 back to their sire. Breed the sons from breeding number 1 back to their mother. 3. 3. Then the next year, breed the granddaughters from breeding number 2 back to their grandfather and the grandsons from breeding number 2 back to their grandmother.
There is a logical extension which I could quote which goes on ad infinitum for this breeding plan. But by the time you finish with number 3 generation you will know how your birds throw and inherit virtues and faults. You will be knowledgeable about breeding plans and what your flock needs. Your males will have 7/8ths the blood of their original sire and the females will have the same of the original dam. you will also know of this breeding plan and how to extend it. if you want to read more about it in the original text, see URL at top of this post: ( remember the content of this book is laws, not theories or opinions. If you do this this that will happen):
Best,
Karen

 

[harmesonfarm]

look at the pale comb and wattles and the washed-out eye on this cock. According to those symptoms, ithe bird looks needy. The comb and wattles should be bright orange and the eye should be reddish bay, not washed out. There is white on the face. Marans don't have white on their face. The comb is a disheveled mess. It should be upright with the correct number of spikes in the proper place. They're not. Unless these problems are health related, and can be fixed, I wouldn't use this cock on a bet. Try worming him and give him Poultry Nutri-Drench in his water. (should look like weak tea). Plus sprout some forage oats for him and give him one cubic inch a day of 4-7 day old forage oat sprouts. I use Plotspike Forage oats I get from Tractor Supply. Not feed oats, forage oats. They will boost his system and help him create more robust sperm. Maybe that will give his comb and wattles color? Give the same to the hens. It will help bring them into lay.
Best,
Karen

Is this in reference to the 17-week old cockerel I had posted about or for another post? Thanks.

 

[3riverschick]

Is this in reference to the 17-week old cockerel I had posted about or for another post? Thanks.

In reference to cock pic in post 3144.
Best,
Karen
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[bullets]

I am pretty excited for this coming season. Unfortunately none of my are laying yet so I grabbed some eggs from the breeder of my original stock. Cooking nicely in the bator. I got my BCM from her as chicks and did not get to see eggshell color. I'm a little disappointed, but according to you wonderful folks I've got good type in my pullet and blue copper cockerel. There one really dark egg in the back is from a pullet just beginning to lay, and not from her own line. She bought chicks from another breeder to breed better egg color into her own line and that dark egg is from the new pullet. These are about a week into incubation and Blue copper and BCM. Wish me luck! I'll be sure to post pics of chicks when they hatch.

 

[harmesonfarm]

@Chooks man @RedBanks @3riverschick Thank you for the feedback...I will see if i can get better photos, but I think at this time he will just end up being a cull due to the lighter egg colour he hatched from and not being quite ready to start the breeding.

I will look into forage oats and sprout those. I do other sprouting for them at this time, but have yet to give ready ones to the chicks./

Thank you again. I will keep note of the photo requirements for judging birds for my next posts.

I have learned so much from this forum, even when it's just seeing what everyone else is posting

 

[3riverschick]

Here are some British Columbia sources for replacing the boy in post 3144.
Best,
Karen

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http://www.beaupeepfarms.com/index.html
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http://www.gradeehfarms.ca/black-copper-marans.html
yes, they are expensive but they also went to trouble of assembling a gene pool.
Ask of they have an older cock they are retiring. Tell them you have hens and
want to grade up your flock with a nice boy.
They do sell breeder birds at times. Look at their webpage. They have put together a strain of their own. The eggs are dark and the cocks look ( from their breeding program) like they also came from dark egg hens. Remember the cock has to do with the dark egg so you need to make sure the cock you get also came from a dark laying mother. This farm has a strain which is overall laying dark eggs so that makes it easier for you.
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ask Wynette, have known her for years. very educated on BCM. Trustworthy.
She will know of the breeders in your area.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/u/4158/wynette
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Ok, if this was me in your position this i what I would do. Sometimes the genetics of variation in a breeding situation put the breeder in a position where continuing on that program will include so many variables, the program becomes unwieldy. I have done this numerous times over the decades and never been sorry. Sometimes you just need to give all your stock away and start over again. In your case, I would not quite do all that. What I would do is go to Gradeeh Farms and tell them you need a good start in BCM. Either a quad ( 2F, 2M) or a breeding trio ( 1M,2F). Tell them you need to linebeed them. Remember they put this strain together and know who can be linebred with whom. Another plus, this strain comes from 2 different sources, not inbred on one source. Good for you. No need to bring in outside blood. Do not cross strains to found a Marans flock. It is a huge mistake unless you have years of time and can hatch out hundreds of chicks a year like Gradeeh did. Linebreed on their past efforts and use the genetic variation in their flock to make their birds even better.
Now about your current flock. Keep your best 2 females and get rid of the rest. Foreign blood should always be brought in thru the female side and never more than 1/4 of foreign blood in a generation. In other words, the foreign female you cross into your main flock should have 3/4 blood of that main flock and only 1/4 foreign blood that you want to add to your main flock. This is esp. critical when dealing with a breed variety like BCM which have had so much diversity bred into them which caring breeders like Gradeeh have worked to breed back out again. ( hum, I need to add to this last sentence. What I meant to say is that Gradeeh has worked hard to breed out unwanted diversity in their birds. carefully selecting the virtues and culling out the unwanted diversity we call faults. Yes, that reads much clearer now, smile.)
So here's what you do;
1. Take you best 2 hens from your current flock. Breed them to your new Gradeeh cock. The resulting chicks will have 1/2 his blood and 1/2 the blood of the foreign hen. Now get rid of all the chicks from this cross except the best 2 females.

2. Breed these 2 best females from number 1 back to the Gradeeh cock ( their sire). Ok, now the chicks from this breeding will hve 3/4 the blood of the Gradeeh cock and 1/4 of the blood of the foreign hen. Again, keep the 2 best females and get rid of the rest.

3. Take the 2 best females from this #2 breeding and cross them into your main flock. Making sure to ID perminently all the chicks so you can tell which are cross blood chicks and which are the pure blood Gradeeeh chicks from your main flock. Keeping the different blood chicks in separate pens is ideal. Actually, it is critical, you don't want chicks of unknown heritage running around now, smile. If you have any, they must be gotten rid of as the breeding program must know which blood is related to which.

4. Now pick out the cross blood chicks which best show the traits you seek and breed them back into your main flock making sure, critically sure, you permanently ID them as cross blood chicks and your Gradeeh pure bloods as pure bloods. You will know the traits you value by this time because you will have been breeding your Gradeeh birds for several generations. Choose from among the cross blood chicks the traits which meet the APA Standard and please your eye, making sure you choose males who came from dark egg laying mothers and females who also came from dark laying mothers. At this point it is your discretion whether you feel the cross blood chicks are sufficiently pure to your main flock to not ID them or if you feel they still need IDing as cross blood chicks. Up to you.
Best Success,
Karen