Is it better to let them die?

[aart]

A bit more while I'm here.
I can't recall how many chickens I've doctored since I've been here; it's a lot.
I do save some, many more die, if not directly from their injury, then from long term effects that make them more vulnerable to predation; a chicken left with a limp for example.
I've got to the point where I'm wondering if my interference is an example of the human arrogance that leads us to believe we can fix everything, when it's apparent that we can't.
Pinch, in the original post would have been better served if I had just cut her throat; nine days of struggling to survive, being syringe fed, there is no way in the 'natural' course of events this would have happened.
I suppose what I need is a notice to predators asking if they could finish the job.

I think that is a very good point.
Anthropomorphism is another aspect to consider...as well as the 'wanna be a doctor' syndrome.

Nope, I wouldn't take a chicken to a vet, can't afford it, even if there was an avian vet around. Typical domestic pet vets are prone to the aspects and syndrome mentioned above[stoprant]. I don't free range, and have a 'Fort Knox' coop, so haven't dealt with predator injuries, so didn't reply to thread inquiry I have had a few with illnesses that required euthanasia in the end, tried to 'doctor' the first for a week, never did that again. If a bird can't eat and drink on it's own after a day or maybe two, and depending on it's 'output', it's gone. Dehydration issues, both summer and winter, are the only thing I've been able to 'fix'.

 

[Shadrach]

The reality.
I heard the general alarm. I took my cut throat razor out of the drawer and headed up to the bank where I could hear Cillin (senior male of Tribe 1) sounding the general alarm call. As I walked up the path Fat Bird (senior hen of Tribe 1) came running down the path sticking tight to the stock net fence and disappeared into the bamboo clump at the edge of the track. I knew Ruffles was safe because I had just taken her off a pile of eggs she had decided to sit on. I also knew it was all over and I’ll be too late to do anything except bury the dead, or cut some poor chickens throat to put it out of its misery.

I was a bit over halfway up the path when a male goshawk, less than three metres away causally launched itself out of a thicket of rosemary bushes growing on the bank below and after a couple of lazy flaps of its wings, glided down into the valley below.

Where’s AxelCoon when you need him?

I knew within a few metres where the goshawk strike would have been and when I get to the spot I started working my way down the bank looking for the usual feather trail. I found Tackle (Another of Cillin’s daughters) deep in a large thyme bush. A while later I heard Block (Cillin’s son) twenty metres or so into the woods trying to emulate his dad with a very croaky alarm call.

Cillin wa at the top of the bank still shouting the house down and I knew he knew where Mel was but I couldn’t find her. It’s moments like this when I look at Cillin and think why can’t you be one of those aggressive roosters that the people on BYC never seem to want. Cillin used to run away from the other roosters until Mel, his daughter taught him how to fight. Cillin is lovely, and now he can hold his own against the other roosters, but a goshawk, he’ll run, and I can’t really blame him given he saw his mother and sister killed by one.

I returned to my house make a cup of tea and then headed back to the strike site. Everyone has gone quiet now and I’m hoped I would be able to hear the chick calling for Mel. As I progressed further down the bank struggling through the undergrowth and start to head into the woods I got a foot caught in a bramble and when I bent down to cut it away I saw a pile of honey coloured feathers. (Mel means honey in Catalan).

The feather trail was about two metres long and went into a pile of branches that had accumulated at the base of an oak tree. Mel was standing under a large broken branch and she made a quiet chirruping sound as I approached. At a glance, Mel looked okay, a few feathers missing, but no broken legs and fully conscious. I gently lifted her out of the pile of branches and checked her over. It wasn’t until I lifted her wings that I saw the tear in her skin right across one side of her breast, The skin has peeled back like a piece of elastic and the muscles in her chest were visible. On the other side there was a graze and lots of feathers missing but the skin wasn’t ripped, or punctured. Her neck on one side was bare of feathers from just below her ear to her hackles and her chest feathers. It looked like someone had taken a pair of hairdressing scissors to them. I had my razor in my hand ready to put her out of her misery, but when I put her down she ran straight back to the strike spot and sat under a nearby rosemary bush making don’t come out calls to her chick.

Now I had a problem and the easy solution wasn’t so easy any more. Mel was still making the don’t come out calls to the chick. Judging from Mels behaviour she certainly thought her chick was alive. The wound, while looking really unpleasant wasn’t that serious. While it was a large section of torn skin, it was only torn skin as far as I could tell and the muscles below were undamaged bar a few scratches.

The wounds were on Mels chest and under her wing. This meant she had fought the goshawk protecting her chick and she lived. You need to have seen a goshawk attack to appreciate just what an incredible feat this was. Mel isn’t much bigger than a bantam. She’s only 14 months old. Was I going to kill her because its easier than the days of care ahead if she survives the shock.
Was I ****!

I could see that Mel was in a lot of pain, her lower eyelids kept closing and her head drooped onto her chest. I wanted to move her as quickly as possible to somewhere clean and safe where I could give her a thorough examination. The problem was the stress Mel would undergo if I move her without her chick and of course, assuming the chick was alive I still had to find and catch it.

I reluctantly left Mel where she was and went back to the house to get the plastic pet carrier I use to contain sick and injured chickens.

Getting Mel up the bank one handed was interesting, but I got her into the pet carrier without further injury. I hoped that once the chick had realise that mum had gone it would try to find the rest of its tribe. A few minutes later, the chick flew across the track and dived under the hay rack; a favourite sheltering spot of tribe 1. A handful of chopped walnuts was all it took to entice the chick out from under the hay rack and a few moments later I had mum and chick in the pet carrier.

I took Mel and the chick to the lovely vet Gloria who has been helping me take care of the chickens here for many years now. Gloria specialised in fowl and birds many years ago and despite initially thinking I’m completely mad when I first stared taking the injured chickens to her, did what she could and now I think she enjoys the challenge. After further examination we agreed that the skin would have to be stitched; usually here they use staples. Stitching skin isn’t easy and Mel would have to be unconscious while Gloria stitched her up. There was a significant risk that Mel might not survive the anaesthetic but we both thought that if Mel did, the chances of her making a full recovery were good. Four hours later, 100 euros less in my wallet, I took a very drowsy Mel home with the chick bouncing around her. It took fourteen stitches to close Mel’s wounds.

Mel eat solids this morning, always a good sign. She’s a bit unsteady on her feet, but some of that is due to the anaesthetic. She grooms the chick from time to time and has inspected her various wounds. Over night she made purring noises to her chick until it finally went to sleep under her tattered wing.

I took a better look at the strike site the next morning. In among Mels feathers were goshawk feathers and some had traces of blood on them. It looks as if the goshawk may have received some injuries in the fight. Given the goshawk was still there, but 20 metres away from Mel who was still standing when I first went up the track, I would say that goshawk had abandoned the hunt; Mel had backed the goshawk down! A hen weighing less than two pounds had beaten off a goshawk to save her chick….incredible.

There are lots of posts here going on about culling the sick and the injured, keeping the flock strong,

breeding from the ‘best’ to ensure the future health of the flock. So, what about Mel then? If I could pick a quality for the chickens here at the top of the list would be the ability to defeat the hawks we get here, the most dangerous of which is the goshawk. Damn right I think the expense and time is worth it. She fought a goshawk saved her chicks life and lived!…….oh never mind, you would need to see the goshawk hunt to understand.

So, here she is. You may bow if you wish. You may show her to your 7 lbs roosters and call them wimps, please don’t ask for autographs, she’s very tired.

 

[Morrigan]

Mel's story brought a tear to my eye. Never mess with a mamma hen.

Saving this hen was worth it for sure.

 

[Fields Mountain Farm]

Just finished reading through.
I know its already been said but I agree, we all have to do what we personally think is best for our situation. That being said...
My situation ..
We live in 5 acres in a bowl shaped area on a mountain. We have warm to hot humid summers and cold sometimes snowy winters but its a fairly moderate climate for the most part. We have predators.. coons, opossum , hawks, coyotes ..ets
Our property is not fenced. I have an open coop and 3 closed coops with runs for growing chicks or specific breeding groups.
My birds come and go day and night as they please. I have a large flock and they are for meat and eggs or to sell.
They are loved and well cared for. I have several large dogs that do very well protecting our place and our critters and family.
However, life happens as well as death. I cant afford vet care so if I find a sick or injured bird it is brought into the house and put in a crate for observation or wound cleaning if needed. As long as the bird is eating and drinking on its own I will continue supportive care. If the bird doesnt appear to be healing it is put down .
Yes, they are resilient animals but I just cant save them all and if its struggling to live and not doing well i wont let it suffer.
All this to say.. its hard to watch one die or suffer, but there is also something to be said about doing what you can in your situation and helping one to survive and live.
Sorry for rambling.. i seem to do it often..

 

[townchicks]

I think it's sad that food growers feel they have to apologize for this here.

Interesting you say that, I often feel just the opposite, that the food growers look down on the pet owners.
I may be speaking only for myself, but I have no problem with those that raise their chickens for meat as well as eggs. If an animal has had a good life and a kind ending, it is far better than the horrible conditions of factory farming and most slaughterhouses. I don't even have a problem with those that cull rather than treat, as long as the animal hasn't suffered.
I have only three hens, and each bird is precious to me. So yes, they go to a vet if I feel it is warranted. I can't have roos, and have a 5 hen limit, so I don't really have the option to raise birds for the table. My chickens are pets, yes, but they live the same kind of life that most everyone else on here gives to theirs. They just won't have the same ending. That's my choice, and I respect that others have other choices. I hope that respect is reciprocal.
BTW, I do eat chicken, though a lot less these days. When I do, I buy "free range" and humanely raised. Yes, I know what the labels really mean, but still, it's better for those chickens.

 

[Fields Mountain Farm]

Interesting you say that, I often feel just the opposite, that the food growers look down on the pet owners.
I may be speaking only for myself, but I have no problem with those that raise their chickens for meat as well as eggs. If an animal has had a good life and a kind ending, it is far better than the horrible conditions of factory farming and most slaughterhouses. I don't even have a problem with those that cull rather than treat, as long as the animal hasn't suffered.
I have only three hens, and each bird is precious to me. So yes, they go to a vet if I feel it is warranted. I can't have roos, and have a 5 hen limit, so I don't really have the option to raise birds for the table. My chickens are pets, yes, but they live the same kind of life that most everyone else on here gives to theirs. They just won't have the same ending. That's my choice, and I respect that others have other choices. I hope that respect is reciprocal.
BTW, I do eat chicken, though a lot less these days. When I do, I buy "free range" and humanely raised. Yes, I know what the labels really mean, but still, it's better for those chickens.

It really brothers me when people wont respect each others personl views or situations. I think its wrong for anyone to berate another person for having different views as long as theres no neglect or abuse involved.
Kudos for explaining yours and respecting others for theirs. If everyone would do the same it be a better world!

 

[Shadrach]

Just finished reading through.
I know its already been said but I agree, we all have to do what we personally think is best for our situation. That being said...
My situation ..
We live in 5 acres in a bowl shaped area on a mountain. We have warm to hot humid summers and cold sometimes snowy winters but its a fairly moderate climate for the most part. We have predators.. coons, opossum , hawks, coyotes ..ets
Our property is not fenced. I have an open coop and 3 closed coops with runs for growing chicks or specific breeding groups.
My birds come and go day and night as they please. I have a large flock and they are for meat and eggs or to sell.
They are loved and well cared for. I have several large dogs that do very well protecting our place and our critters and family.
However, life happens as well as death. I cant afford vet care so if I find a sick or injured bird it is brought into the house and put in a crate for observation or wound cleaning if needed. As long as the bird is eating and drinking on its own I will continue supportive care. If the bird doesnt appear to be healing it is put down .
Yes, they are resilient animals but I just cant save them all and if its struggling to live and not doing well i wont let it suffer.
All this to say.. its hard to watch one die or suffer, but there is also something to be said about doing what you can in your situation and helping one to survive and live.
Sorry for rambling.. i seem to do it often..

I can’t afford vet bills either. That was my holiday money.
Luckily Gloria the vet here is very very cheap given what she does.
The last vet bill I paid with one of the lamps I make.
I don’t get many sick chickens here.
What I get is injuries. The simple truth is is that this area isn’t suitable for free ranging. There are just too many predators.

There are lots of chicken keepers who won’t treat the sick, or injured; I don’t know if they’re right or wrong. I don’t care really. Most I’ve read about here take very good care of their chickens, they just see things differently.

I take each one as it comes and don’t have a rule as such. I suppose if I were to have one, it would be something like if they don’t eat solids by day three they’re probably going to die anyway in which case the quicker the better.

What I try to guard against is wandering over the line between chicken care and chicken neglect and with free range chickens it’s very easy to do imo.

 

[Fields Mountain Farm]

I can’t afford vet bills either. That was my holiday money.
Luckily Gloria the vet here is very very cheap given what she does.
The last vet bill I paid with one of the lamps I make.
I don’t get many sick chickens here.
What I get is injuries. The simple truth is is that this area isn’t suitable for free ranging. There are just too many predators.

There are lots of chicken keepers who won’t treat the sick, or injured; I don’t know if they’re right or wrong. I don’t care really. Most I’ve read about here take very good care of their chickens, they just see things differently.

I take each one as it comes and don’t have a rule as such. I suppose if I were to have one, it would be something like if they don’t eat solids by day three they’re probably going to die anyway in which case the quicker the better.

What I try to guard against is wandering over the line between chicken care and chicken neglect and with free range chickens it’s very easy to do imo.

Well put!
Its great you were able to barter with your vet.
If had the option to barter for vet services id be more likely to take a chicken in. Unfortunately its not something vets here do.
So I do what I can for them on my own. Ive had some with pretty bad injuries that healed with little help from me. Just a safe place to rest and mend without being picked at by the rest of the flock. And had other's die from the smallest of injuries or shock.
It seems to be about like a coin toss..

 

[aart]

I'm not going to lie most of our birds are a food source for eggs or meat.

I think it's sad that food growers feel they have to apologize for this here.

Interesting you say that, I often feel just the opposite, that the food growers look down on the pet owners.
I may be speaking only for myself, but I have no problem with those that raise their chickens for meat as well as eggs. If an animal has had a good life and a kind ending, it is far better than the horrible conditions of factory farming and most slaughterhouses. I don't even have a problem with those that cull rather than treat, as long as the animal hasn't suffered.

I'm sure there are those from both sides that are openly disrespectful...but keep my post in context, I was responding to a voluntary preemptive 'apology' of sorts.

 

[townchicks]

I'm sure there are those from both sides that are openly disrespectful...but keep my post in context, I was responding to a voluntary preemptive 'apology' of sorts.

My post wasn't specifically aimed at you, I agree with those words completely. I just wanted to point out the other side of the coin, I think sometimes we are not so kind. I include myself in that, although I do try. Sometimes it is just the limitations of text, w/o the inflection, it is easy to misunderstand someone.