Is it better to let them die?

[Morrigan]

Most of the disrespect, although some of it is probably unintentional, comes from my real life interactions with people. When they learn I raise chickens and rabbits for food, some recoil in horror and look like they want to search my scalp for devil horns. I think that experience may carry over here and make me feel more defensive or apologetic for my choices, then I really ought to.

However, I've found that most people in this forum focus on the common goals of responsible chicken keeping, and generally respect others' views as to whether chickens are pets or livestock. All and all, I've found this one of the friendliest and most tolerant on-line communities I've come across.

 

[Fields Mountain Farm]

Most of the disrespect, although some of it is probably unintentional, comes from my real life interactions with people. When they learn I raise chickens and rabbits for food, some recoil in horror and look like they want to search my scalp for devil horns. I think that experience may carry over here and make me feel more defensive or apologetic for my choices, then I really ought to.

However, I've found that most people in this forum focus on the common goals of responsible chicken keeping, and generally respect others' views as to whether chickens are pets or livestock. All and all, I've found this one of the friendliest and most tolerant on-line communities I've come across.

X2

 

[bobbi-j]

I have several ways of coping. One of them is to try not to get attached. There is always the one or two, however, that make pets (or is that pests?) of themselves by being tame and friendly. I don't name them, exactly. My current big red cockerel is called Big Red, just because of his size and color. DH knows immediately who I'm talking about. The little BO that comes running every time I'm in sight is Goldie, for the same reason. The thing is, it seems like naming them is a death sentence for them. I also know the realities of free ranging. It happens - a predator comes and they die. It bothers me, but I can't let myself be nervous about free ranging, or I'd be a wreck. I just have to accept my losses and move on.

 

[bobbi-j]

I forgot to mention that my chickens don’t go to the vet, either. I can’t say what I’d do with a sick chicken, as I have not had to deal with that, other than a few cases of ascites one year. I let the first one be, hoping it would get better. It didn’t. The next two were euthanized as soon as I noticed it. Both had a lot of fluid in them. I have tried to save injured ones and ended up just prolonging their misery. Now l give them a few days to see if they improve, and if they don’t, they are put down.

 

[chickendreams24]

I think that is a very good point.
Anthropomorphism is another aspect to consider...as well as the 'wanna be a doctor' syndrome.

Nope, I wouldn't take a chicken to a vet, can't afford it, even if there was an avian vet around. Typical domestic pet vets are prone to the aspects and syndrome mentioned above[stoprant]. I don't free range, and have a 'Fort Knox' coop, so haven't dealt with predator injuries, so didn't reply to thread inquiry I have had a few with illnesses that required euthanasia in the end, tried to 'doctor' the first for a week, never did that again. If a bird can't eat and drink on it's own after a day or maybe two, and depending on it's 'output', it's gone. Dehydration issues, both summer and winter, are the only thing I've been able to 'fix'.

I too wouldn't take a chicken to a vet. We also can't afford it. If I had the money and easy access to a veterinarian that sees chickens I would consider it especially if it were something like a cureable injury. Generally we treat injuries here as long as I believe they can be survived. We even had a rooster survive what I believe could only have been a mink attack. The coop wall he was in still shows the arterial spray that came from him. He was in bad shape but managed to escape and balance on the edge of a tarp. He had the will to live and I gave him a chance.

I generally give injured birds a chance to recover from shock in peace and try to get them eating and drinking. If at any time they give up I end their suffering.

I will syringe feed birds food and water to try and get them over the hump or to supplement minimal interest but I know it's not viable long term.

I've never had a bird with ascites but I believe I would end their suffering quite quickly if their behavior wasn't their norm.

Of course not all injuries can be treated. When the rats were preying on our flock they would eat into the vents of the chickens and eat out much of the innards. Of course there was no way a chicken could survive that and all the birds we found in this condition alive(yes many of them were still alive) were immediately put down.

We have payed for a necropsy to be done and that in our state was 100$, ouch. Our local poultry vet works from our local ag vet but he is nearly retired now and is barely there. We have one other vet locally that treats exotics and told me once he also saw chickens but I know it would be very expensive and he doesn't often see them. I wish we could barter with our vet that would be wonderful.

So yes I do treat chickens depending on what is wrong and what their symptoms are.

Generally I will give the birds a few days to improve depending on how they're doing and their symptoms.

UOTE="Shadrach, post: 20418031, member: 521413"]The reality.
I heard the general alarm. I took my cut throat razor out of the drawer and headed up to the bank where I could hear Cillin (senior male of Tribe 1) sounding the general alarm call. As I walked up the path Fat Bird (senior hen of Tribe 1) came running down the path sticking tight to the stock net fence and disappeared into the bamboo clump at the edge of the track. I knew Ruffles was safe because I had just taken her off a pile of eggs she had decided to sit on. I also knew it was all over and I’ll be too late to do anything except bury the dead, or cut some poor chickens throat to put it out of its misery.

I was a bit over halfway up the path when a male goshawk, less than three metres away causally launched itself out of a thicket of rosemary bushes growing on the bank below and after a couple of lazy flaps of its wings, glided down into the valley below.

Where’s AxelCoon when you need him?

I knew within a few metres where the goshawk strike would have been and when I get to the spot I started working my way down the bank looking for the usual feather trail. I found Tackle (Another of Cillin’s daughters) deep in a large thyme bush. A while later I heard Block (Cillin’s son) twenty metres or so into the woods trying to emulate his dad with a very croaky alarm call.

Cillin wa at the top of the bank still shouting the house down and I knew he knew where Mel was but I couldn’t find her. It’s moments like this when I look at Cillin and think why can’t you be one of those aggressive roosters that the people on BYC never seem to want. Cillin used to run away from the other roosters until Mel, his daughter taught him how to fight. Cillin is lovely, and now he can hold his own against the other roosters, but a goshawk, he’ll run, and I can’t really blame him given he saw his mother and sister killed by one.

I returned to my house make a cup of tea and then headed back to the strike site. Everyone has gone quiet now and I’m hoped I would be able to hear the chick calling for Mel. As I progressed further down the bank struggling through the undergrowth and start to head into the woods I got a foot caught in a bramble and when I bent down to cut it away I saw a pile of honey coloured feathers. (Mel means honey in Catalan).

The feather trail was about two metres long and went into a pile of branches that had accumulated at the base of an oak tree. Mel was standing under a large broken branch and she made a quiet chirruping sound as I approached. At a glance, Mel looked okay, a few feathers missing, but no broken legs and fully conscious. I gently lifted her out of the pile of branches and checked her over. It wasn’t until I lifted her wings that I saw the tear in her skin right across one side of her breast, The skin has peeled back like a piece of elastic and the muscles in her chest were visible. On the other side there was a graze and lots of feathers missing but the skin wasn’t ripped, or punctured. Her neck on one side was bare of feathers from just below her ear to her hackles and her chest feathers. It looked like someone had taken a pair of hairdressing scissors to them. I had my razor in my hand ready to put her out of her misery, but when I put her down she ran straight back to the strike spot and sat under a nearby rosemary bush making don’t come out calls to her chick.

Now I had a problem and the easy solution wasn’t so easy any more. Mel was still making the don’t come out calls to the chick. Judging from Mels behaviour she certainly thought her chick was alive. The wound, while looking really unpleasant wasn’t that serious. While it was a large section of torn skin, it was only torn skin as far as I could tell and the muscles below were undamaged bar a few scratches.

The wounds were on Mels chest and under her wing. This meant she had fought the goshawk protecting her chick and she lived. You need to have seen a goshawk attack to appreciate just what an incredible feat this was. Mel isn’t much bigger than a bantam. She’s only 14 months old. Was I going to kill her because its easier than the days of care ahead if she survives the shock.
Was I ****!

I could see that Mel was in a lot of pain, her lower eyelids kept closing and her head drooped onto her chest. I wanted to move her as quickly as possible to somewhere clean and safe where I could give her a thorough examination. The problem was the stress Mel would undergo if I move her without her chick and of course, assuming the chick was alive I still had to find and catch it.

I reluctantly left Mel where she was and went back to the house to get the plastic pet carrier I use to contain sick and injured chickens.

Getting Mel up the bank one handed was interesting, but I got her into the pet carrier without further injury. I hoped that once the chick had realise that mum had gone it would try to find the rest of its tribe. A few minutes later, the chick flew across the track and dived under the hay rack; a favourite sheltering spot of tribe 1. A handful of chopped walnuts was all it took to entice the chick out from under the hay rack and a few moments later I had mum and chick in the pet carrier.

I took Mel and the chick to the lovely vet Gloria who has been helping me take care of the chickens here for many years now. Gloria specialised in fowl and birds many years ago and despite initially thinking I’m completely mad when I first stared taking the injured chickens to her, did what she could and now I think she enjoys the challenge. After further examination we agreed that the skin would have to be stitched; usually here they use staples. Stitching skin isn’t easy and Mel would have to be unconscious while Gloria stitched her up. There was a significant risk that Mel might not survive the anaesthetic but we both thought that if Mel did, the chances of her making a full recovery were good. Four hours later, 100 euros less in my wallet, I took a very drowsy Mel home with the chick bouncing around her. It took fourteen stitches to close Mel’s wounds.

Mel eat solids this morning, always a good sign. She’s a bit unsteady on her feet, but some of that is due to the anaesthetic. She grooms the chick from time to time and has inspected her various wounds. Over night she made purring noises to her chick until it finally went to sleep under her tattered wing.

I took a better look at the strike site the next morning. In among Mels feathers were goshawk feathers and some had traces of blood on them. It looks as if the goshawk may have received some injuries in the fight. Given the goshawk was still there, but 20 metres away from Mel who was still standing when I first went up the track, I would say that goshawk had abandoned the hunt; Mel had backed the goshawk down! A hen weighing less than two pounds had beaten off a goshawk to save her chick….incredible.

There are lots of posts here going on about culling the sick and the injured, keeping the flock strong,

breeding from the ‘best’ to ensure the future health of the flock. So, what about Mel then? If I could pick a quality for the chickens here at the top of the list would be the ability to defeat the hawks we get here, the most dangerous of which is the goshawk. Damn right I think the expense and time is worth it. She fought a goshawk saved her chicks life and lived!…….oh never mind, you would need to see the goshawk hunt to understand.

View attachment 1524499
View attachment 1524500
So, here she is. You may bow if you wish. You may show her to your 7 lbs roosters and call them wimps, please don’t ask for autographs, she’s very tired.[/QUOTE]

I too would have saved her.

Just finished reading through.
I know its already been said but I agree, we all have to do what we personally think is best for our situation. That being said...
My situation ..
We live in 5 acres in a bowl shaped area on a mountain. We have warm to hot humid summers and cold sometimes snowy winters but its a fairly moderate climate for the most part. We have predators.. coons, opossum , hawks, coyotes ..ets
Our property is not fenced. I have an open coop and 3 closed coops with runs for growing chicks or specific breeding groups.
My birds come and go day and night as they please. I have a large flock and they are for meat and eggs or to sell.
They are loved and well cared for. I have several large dogs that do very well protecting our place and our critters and family.
However, life happens as well as death. I cant afford vet care so if I find a sick or injured bird it is brought into the house and put in a crate for observation or wound cleaning if needed. As long as the bird is eating and drinking on its own I will continue supportive care. If the bird doesnt appear to be healing it is put down .
Yes, they are resilient animals but I just cant save them all and if its struggling to live and not doing well i wont let it suffer.
All this to say.. its hard to watch one die or suffer, but there is also something to be said about doing what you can in your situation and helping one to survive and live.
Sorry for rambling.. i seem to do it often..

Wells said.

I can’t afford vet bills either. That was my holiday money.
Luckily Gloria the vet here is very very cheap given what she does.
The last vet bill I paid with one of the lamps I make.
I don’t get many sick chickens here.
What I get is injuries. The simple truth is is that this area isn’t suitable for free ranging. There are just too many predators.

There are lots of chicken keepers who won’t treat the sick, or injured; I don’t know if they’re right or wrong. I don’t care really. Most I’ve read about here take very good care of their chickens, they just see things differently.

I take each one as it comes and don’t have a rule as such. I suppose if I were to have one, it would be something like if they don’t eat solids by day three they’re probably going to die anyway in which case the quicker the better.

What I try to guard against is wandering over the line between chicken care and chicken neglect and with free range chickens it’s very easy to do imo.

We also tend to look at things on a chicken by chicken basis.

Well put!
Its great you were able to barter with your vet.
If had the option to barter for vet services id be more likely to take a chicken in. Unfortunately its not something vets here do.
So I do what I can for them on my own. Ive had some with pretty bad injuries that healed with little help from me. Just a safe place to rest and mend without being picked at by the rest of the flock. And had other's die from the smallest of injuries or shock.
It seems to be about like a coin toss..

I too have had chickens survive some amazing things and had chickens die from some of the dumbest things.

I'm sure there are those from both sides that are openly disrespectful...but keep my post in context, I was responding to a voluntary preemptive 'apology' of sorts.

Well I didn't mean to cause so much trouble.

My post wasn't specifically aimed at you, I agree with those words completely. I just wanted to point out the other side of the coin, I think sometimes we are not so kind. I include myself in that, although I do try. Sometimes it is just the limitations of text, w/o the inflection, it is easy to misunderstand someone.

Most of the disrespect, although some of it is probably unintentional, comes from my real life interactions with people. When they learn I raise chickens and rabbits for food, some recoil in horror and look like they want to search my scalp for devil horns. I think that experience may carry over here and make me feel more defensive or apologetic for my choices, then I really ought to.

However, I've found that most people in this forum focus on the common goals of responsible chicken keeping, and generally respect others' views as to whether chickens are pets or livestock. All and all, I've found this one of the friendliest and most tolerant on-line communities I've come across.

I get this a lot too. That's why I said what I said.

I have several ways of coping. One of them is to try not to get attached. There is always the one or two, however, that make pets (or is that pests?) of themselves by being tame and friendly. I don't name them, exactly. My current big red cockerel is called Big Red, just because of his size and color. DH knows immediately who I'm talking about. The little BO that comes running every time I'm in sight is Goldie, for the same reason. The thing is, it seems like naming them is a death sentence for them. I also know the realities of free ranging. It happens - a predator comes and they die. It bothers me, but I can't let myself be nervous about free ranging, or I'd be a wreck. I just have to accept my losses and move on.

I thought it was just my predators that prefer the taste of named birds.


I'm starting to feel like I'm quoting every post on this thread today. There's been a lot of good posts here today.

 

[micstrachan]

I am loving this respectful thread! My hens are all beloved pets… But I have a cousin who used to raise them for her family of 10 to eat. One time when I mentioned I keep chickens and that we had that in common, she meantioned chickens are mean. I told her that mine are pets, and she replied that she didn’t have that luxury. Honestly, I felt a little embarrassed And realized I was being insensitive. I have great respect for people who grow their own birds for eggs and meat.
Also @Shadrach, you had me on the edge of my seat reading that! You are a great writer!

 

[Aunt Angus]

I am loving this respect full thread!

X2

 

[Shadrach]

Most of the disrespect, although some of it is probably unintentional, comes from my real life interactions with people. When they learn I raise chickens and rabbits for food, some recoil in horror and look like they want to search my scalp for devil horns. I think that experience may carry over here and make me feel more defensive or apologetic for my choices, then I really ought to.

However, I've found that most people in this forum focus on the common goals of responsible chicken keeping, and generally respect others' views as to whether chickens are pets or livestock. All and all, I've found this one of the friendliest and most tolerant on-line communities I've come across.

X2

I am loving this respect full thread! My hands are all beloved pets… But I have a cousin who used to raise them for her family of 10 to eat. One time when I mentioned I keep chickens and that we had that in common, she meantioned chickens are mean. I told her that mine are pets, and she replied that she didn’t have that luxury. Honestly, I felt a little embarrassed And realized I was being insensitive. I have great respect for people who grow their own birds for eggs and meat.
Also @Shadrach, you had me on the edge of my seat reading that! You are a great writer!

X2

I agree. I don’t know how BYC pick their moderators but I think they do an amazingly good job.
It’s very easy to forget that BYC has chosen to cater for a very wide range of ages and nationalities.
Something I might write for a British audience, especially humour, and mine gets pretty dark at times, can be totally misconstrued by a reader with a different cultural background.
I think some people forget that BYC isn’t ‘their’ site. It’s a problem inherent in tolerant moderation.
I’ve had posts moderated; I don’t argue. There are some rules they have to adhere to for legal reasons and there are others that are there to protect the sensibilities of other posters.
There is a post somewhere where the staff claim they have the best moderators on the web. When I first read it I was dubious to say the least. Having been here a few weeks and having had an awful lot to say for myself, I think they may be right.

 

[Shadrach]

Interesting you say that, I often feel just the opposite, that the food growers look down on the pet owners.
I may be speaking only for myself, but I have no problem with those that raise their chickens for meat as well as eggs. If an animal has had a good life and a kind ending, it is far better than the horrible conditions of factory farming and most slaughterhouses. I don't even have a problem with those that cull rather than treat, as long as the animal hasn't suffered.
I have only three hens, and each bird is precious to me. So yes, they go to a vet if I feel it is warranted. I can't have roos, and have a 5 hen limit, so I don't really have the option to raise birds for the table. My chickens are pets, yes, but they live the same kind of life that most everyone else on here gives to theirs. They just won't have the same ending. That's my choice, and I respect that others have other choices. I hope that respect is reciprocal.
BTW, I do eat chicken, though a lot less these days. When I do, I buy "free range" and humanely raised. Yes, I know what the labels really mean, but still, it's better for those chickens.

I was surprised to read you eat chicken. I don’t eat bought chicken but I’ll eat a chicken that lived here. Some people who know how much time I spend with the chickens here are stunned when I tell them I not only eat them, I’ll kill them as well. It’s a very difficult standpoint to explain to people.

 

[PattyNH]

So, here she is. You may bow if you wish. You may show her to your 7 lbs roosters and call them wimps, please don’t ask for autographs, she’s very tired.

What an amazing, fearless hen!! I am beyond impressed So glad you could do something to help her survive! Like others have said, I think it is a fine balance between intervening and knowing when the "right" call is ending an animals suffering. I too have suffered losses in my flock. Fortunately I never had to make a decision as the predator killed the hens each time. I do know I'd do what I could, within reason, to help one of my flock survive. But there are so many considerations that go into a decision like that, not only survivability but, as others said, cost. Have I sat out at night with a flashlight and air rifle after hearing my flock alert? Absolutely. But I also know I can't protect them 24/7 from a determined predator, especially one that has all the time in the world to wait and watch for the opportunity to get a meal.

What do I do when I lose a hen? The same as when I lose any other animal. I grieve, I pay respect to it, thank it for the happiness and nourishment (mind and body) it has provided, and give it a proper burial. And I remember it

I think you are doing wonderful work by studying and caring for "your" flock. And I'm sure they appreciate all the effort you put into it.