Is this sexual dimorphism at hatch?

[OhZark Biddies]

Here’s one for the genetics folks....
@The Moonshiner
@nicalandia
@ any one else ...too

... so I crossed a salmon Faverolle rooster with a splash ameraucana hen... but only hatched 3 chicks...

Two of them were darker from the beginning and are feathering in with a “moth wing” pattern on their wing feathers ... not sure what it’d actually be called...

At hatch:

At about a week:

One of them was lighter and is feathering in blue on the wings....

At hatch:

At about a week:

I suspect that the two darker ones are males and the lighter one is a female... and that this is related to the sexual dimorphism of the salmon Faverolle breed ... as shown in this reference image, with the male salmon Faverolle on the top, and the female on the bottom:

But I don’t know what the genetic explination would be.... something to do with the blue gene working on the Wheaton base? Or something else?

If the light vs dark chicks do turn out to be female and male respectively.... is this a reliable sex link cross then?

But could it be that none of this holds water and that the splash ameraucanab was just hiding something under the blue and black genes?

Just curious what I’m seeing here...

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

More pics here:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/blue-favaucana.1210277/page-5#post-21340844

 

[Amer]

I don't think so...
Faverolles are on a wheaten base, but wheaten is recessive. These are dominant black split to wheaten.
I think the stippling showed up because of leakage.
I crossed a Wheaten Ameraucana cock and a Dominique bantam hen. The EE I got out of that was just leaky black in color, but she began feathering similarly, and she has very similar genetics.
(All of the genetics experts may realise I inadvertently made a sexlink, in more than one way.)
Yours would be sexlinked if you crossed it with a blue Ameraucana rooster and Faverolles hen, sexable by leg color, but you had the cross done the opposite way.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I don't think so...
Faverolles are on a wheaten base, but wheaten is recessive. These are dominant black split to wheaten.
I think the stippling showed up because of leakage.
I crossed a Wheaten Ameraucana cock and a Dominique bantam hen. The EE I got out of that was just leaky black in color, but she began feathering similarly, and she has very similar genetics.
(All of the genetics experts may realise I inadvertently made a sexlink, in more than one way.)
Yours would be sexlinked if you crossed it with a blue Ameraucana rooster and Faverolles hen, sexable by leg color, but you had the cross done the opposite way.

Thanks for the reply, that helps me understand what I’m seeing.

I was expecting blue with some red leakage... but I was expecting all of the chicks to look the same ...

... so the one without the stippling is just not showing leakage due to not getting a copy of one or more genes? ... and the ones that do show it did get a copy of that ... is that it?

... something like mahogany maybe if the rooster was split for that?....

.... or something like autosomal red, if he was split for whatever contributes to that?....

... or would it be something else that the Ameraucana is hiding under the dominant black that expresses when split for extended black...?

Or any/all of the above?

 

[The Moonshiner]

Your ameraucana is carrying something underneath.
Short answer. Pure birds carry two copies of their genes and that's why they breed true. Because whichever gene they pass forward its the same thing.
When you cross to pure birds you know what genes each parent passes on. Then you figure out what those combinations will produce. For the most part with the exception of something like blue all chicks have the same set of genes so they appear the same.
When you mix those offspring or mixed birds then there's different genes in the gene pairs and it varies which gene is passed on and then also the complete gene make up. That's why you get so many variations with 2nd generations or mixing mixes.
I've mixed a lot of patterns and the first offspring are always the same with maybe some slight variations. That isn't the case with your chicks so I'd say the ameraucana has a hidden gene or more in his genetics and some chicks got that gene while others didn't.
I understand you thoughts with the faverolles wheaten but I don't think that's what's going on.
Your like chick is what I'd expect. You dark chicks would have me scratching my head and wondering what's going on and where it came from.
The extended black should cover wheaten so even with the male/female difference I wouldn't see it showing to that extent under extended black.
That's just my thoughts and hope it makes some sense.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

Your ameraucana is carrying something underneath.
Short answer. Pure birds carry two copies of their genes and that's why they breed true. Because whichever gene they pass forward its the same thing.
When you cross to pure birds you know what genes each parent passes on. Then you figure out what those combinations will produce. For the most part with the exception of something like blue all chicks have the same set of genes so they appear the same.
When you mix those offspring or mixed birds then there's different genes in the gene pairs and it varies which gene is passed on and then also the complete gene make up. That's why you get so many variations with 2nd generations or mixing mixes.
I've mixed a lot of patterns and the first offspring are always the same with maybe some slight variations. That isn't the case with your chicks so I'd say the ameraucana has a hidden gene or more in his genetics and some chicks got that gene while others didn't.
I understand you thoughts with the faverolles wheaten but I don't think that's what's going on.
Your like chick is what I'd expect. You dark chicks would have me scratching my head and wondering what's going on and where it came from.
The extended black should cover wheaten so even with the male/female difference I wouldn't see it showing to that extent under extended black.
That's just my thoughts and hope it makes some sense.

That little b!+ch ... She’s flighty and mean... and now she’s smuggling genes into the coop!

It’ll be interesting to see what the two darker ones look like as they mature.

I have a half hearted plan to try creating my own blue salmon Faverolles by taking one of these back to a Faverolle hen... so I guess I need to be hoping the one light colored chick is male now.... since I already sent the fav rooster to the stew pot.

I don’t really have the space to be serious about it though, so I guess I’d be just as happy either way... sloppy barnyard mixes are interesting to me too... lol

Thanks for the reply... that helps a lot.

Guess I need to read up on what creates the dimorphic colors of the Wheatons so I can understand it better...

 

[nicalandia]

I would like to point out that Sexual Dimorphism is quite a broad subject, not only related to color, but also to size and behaviour, in chicken breeds the game breeds males show a greater Sexual size dimorphism(where Males are larger than females) than other breeds, followed by Ornamental and dual purpose breeds.

Color Sexual Dimorphism is not to be confused with sex link or Autosexing traits, for example the Salmon Faverolle breed shows what is called color sexual dimorphism but does not have any sex linked genes that may influence such expression.

In the OP case, I see no color sexual dimorphism

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I would like to point out that Sexual Dimorphism is quite a broad subject, not only related to color, but also to size and behaviour, in chicken breeds the game breeds males show a greater Sexual size dimorphism(where Males are larger than females) than other breeds, followed by Ornamental and dual purpose breeds.

Color Sexual Dimorphism is not to be confused with sex link or Autosexing traits, for example the Salmon Faverolle breed shows what is called color sexual dimorphism but does not have any sex linked genes that may influence such expression.

In the OP case, I see no color sexual dimorphism

Thanks for the reply....

Indeed ... this is why I titled the thread as I did... because I felt like there was nothing present in the cross that would be a sex link gene....

...but thought maybe somehow the dimorphism from the salmon favs might be at play....

I don’t really understand the mechanism involved in creating the color dimorphism in the salmon favs or other Wheatons.... but I think I’ve seen it explained in something I’ve read.

 

[nicalandia]

Guess I need to read up on what creates the dimorphic colors of the Wheatons so I can understand it better...

In the case of wildtype wheaten chickens (and pretty much any other breed where the males are Black Breasted Red/Silver/gold) Color Sexual Dimorphism begins when the males chicks start to mature to adults, these male chicks production of testosterone increase rapidly and selectively, one of these organs is the skin, high testosterone levels at the skin is what makes the difference, if this interaction of testosterone at the skin of the males is inhibited in any way these males chicks will feathered with a color pattern exactly as the females, in this case they will be wheaten colored like their dame or like their female siblings... And this is where The henny feathering autosomal gene comes in, this incomplete dominant gene will inhibit the production of testosterone at the skin tissue level and will produce wheaten looking roosters.

Wheaten based Game cock with the Henny feathering autosomal gene

 

[The Moonshiner]

But wild type and wheaten birds feather in differently with their first set of feathers. Way before any thing close to maturity.
The OPs faverolles pics show that.
My duckwings start to show differences at around 3 or 4 weeks that are unmistakable.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

But wild type and wheaten birds feather in differently with their first set of feathers. Way before any thing close to maturity.
The OPs faverolles pics show that.
My duckwings start to show differences at around 3 or 4 weeks that are unmistakable.

3-4 weeks is right for Faverolles.... but from what I recall last year... It seemed like it was noticeable but not definitive as soon as they grew feathers... so about a week...