Java Thread

[flowerchild59]

As far as most are concerned, there is only 1 color of Java, and that is black. They breed true for ever & ever and have been tested for genetic purity in an effort to bring back the pure breed.
Mottled is a lurking gene, and 2 birds having this lurking gene can produce offspring of mottled coloration.
I have yet to meet or speak to any Java breeder that recognizes the "Auburn" as anything other than impure genetics....an 'EE' if you get my drift.
If the bird's genes were pure, there would be no coloration on it except black, and in the mottled, white.
Don't even talk to Monte about the so called "Auburn".
he has been breeding Javas & supplied Urch with his line and for decades has hatched thousands of thousands of chicks and NEVER has he had so much as 1 "Auburn" sport pop out.
He insists someone inbred another breed into the black java to get an "Auburn" and so it is genetically impure, and should never be called a Java.
It CAN be a new breed and so should have a new name.
Side by side, you would never know they were the same breed, and technically, they are not.
Just sayin.
Keep track of the SOP & breed for SOP, and your flocks will improve, but you must cull all imperfect out of your flocks.
It takes time, and starting with the best you can find is a big help

So will breeding two mottled produce an occasional black???? Or White???

 

[bnjrob]

As far as most are concerned, there is only 1 color of Java, and that is black. They breed true for ever & ever and have been tested for genetic purity in an effort to bring back the pure breed.
Mottled is a lurking gene, and 2 birds having this lurking gene can produce offspring of mottled coloration.
I have yet to meet or speak to any Java breeder that recognizes the "Auburn" as anything other than impure genetics....an 'EE' if you get my drift.
If the bird's genes were pure, there would be no coloration on it except black, and in the mottled, white.
Don't even talk to Monte about the so called "Auburn".
he has been breeding Javas & supplied Urch with his line and for decades has hatched thousands of thousands of chicks and NEVER has he had so much as 1 "Auburn" sport pop out.
He insists someone inbred another breed into the black java to get an "Auburn" and so it is genetically impure, and should never be called a Java.
It CAN be a new breed and so should have a new name.
Side by side, you would never know they were the same breed, and technically, they are not.
Just sayin.
Keep track of the SOP & breed for SOP, and your flocks will improve, but you must cull all imperfect out of your flocks.
It takes time, and starting with the best you can find is a big help !

Ah, the "snobbery" of chicken breeding

My mottleds came from a breeder that got her mottleds from Urch. Not sure how/why this "mottled" boy of mine turned up black with gold feathering except those odd little recessive genes popped up. Maybe at some point we can do some lab testing of the auburns to see the genetic line more clearly (I am nosy and just think it'd be interesting to know). I am hoping I will get a good mottled boy out of our group to breed with. Thought we had one, but he injured his leg and now is not going to be able to breed well so counting on the younger ones to have at least one good boy to work with the mottleds. Then we'll see what we are going to do with our black/gold boy. Had what I believe would have been 2 whites but they died. They were quite runty and I'm thinking that perhaps something with the whites have a lethal gene or something in there.

It's all quite fascinating and I am reading what I can of all the genetics stuff. I found that 1920s chicken breeding book on a university site that has old books scanned into pdfs. I feel like I am being spoonfed with a shovel and not retaining as much of this genetic/breeding stuff as I'd like. I really would like to see what those blue javas that popped out look like. A lady in OH had them hatch.

 

[bnjrob]

So will breeding two mottled produce an occasional black???? Or White???

My black/gold boy came from mottleds. Not sure what percentage of blacks/whites can come up in mottleds but it obviously can and does happen.

 

[PotterWatch]

Quote: He's actually pretty big. How big are they normally? It doesn't much matter to me as he is just around as flock protection and because we like him, but he is much larger than most of the roosters I have seen.

 

[bnjrob]

Don't even talk to Monte about the so called "Auburn".
he has been breeding Javas & supplied Urch with his line and for decades has hatched thousands of thousands of chicks and NEVER has he had so much as 1 "Auburn" sport pop out.
He insists someone inbred another breed into the black java to get an "Auburn" and so it is genetically impure, and should never be called a Java.
It CAN be a new breed and so should have a new name.
Side by side, you would never know they were the same breed, and technically, they are not.

How long ago does Monte think that someone bred another breed with a black java to get an auburn?

In the old 1920s book "The Mating and Breeding of Poultry" there is mention of red and straw colors that pop up in black javas - "The color of both sexes should, of course, be black throughout, free from any foreign color, which is most apt to occur as red or straw in hackle, back wing bows and saddle of males, or as white or gray inthe wings and at the root of tail"

Red/straw color is mentioned more than once in the book and says that they are colors "most apt to occur" . By this book's publishing date, that would mean that it's been more than 100 years since someone bred another chicken into the black javas to get the auburn genes in the gene pool.

I have seen photos of the new auburns - and they don't look very java-like. But obviously there is some sort of recessive gene that has caused auburn-y colors as far back as the early 20th century or these guys would not have written about it.

Curious minds would love to know.....

​

 

[java girl 2]

Quote: Ok so Urch has monte's line?? do he have other lines in his javas or is it just monte's line??

 

[java girl 2]

haTHOR, I send you a PM. Did you get it??

 

[The Old Yolks]

Oh boy do I feel like a fool now. I guess I should have researched more and asked a whole lot more questions about the "auburn" color before I went crazy and hatched so many eggs. I assumed, being the novice that I am, that the auburns were a project Java and when they finally reached the SOP they would be recognized by APA. Shame on me. I personally have never had any dealings with Monte Bowen but his reputation precedes him and I completely respect what he has to say. I am curious though if Javas are only black then why is the mottled recognized? It is just white and black vs. gold and black and when and where did it appear? So confusing. Another question is why would the MSI claim to have hatched them from java eggs and have facilitated a breeding program for them and why would Garfield Farms not have culled them if they weren't meeting the SOP for Javas and now Behl Farms and Bill York has the group of birds from MSI and are calling them Auburn Javas. UGG my head is spinning! If they are indeed a new breed then I completely agree with ChickieLady that they need to be renamed and standards for them need to set in place. Now that my bubble of java happiness has been burst I guess the responsible thing to do is just keep my auburn beautys separate from my sq javas, enjoy them for what they are, and focus my breeding energy on what is classified as "Java" according to the SOP. There is no sense in degrading the breed by contiuning to breed outside of the standards that was never my personal intention. I wish everyone a blessed day. Happy Hatching!

 

[QuackerJackFarms]

I'm confused. Cuz now I don't know what to call my Auburn. Do I call him a Java?

 

[bnjrob]

Oh boy do I feel like a fool now. I guess I should have researched more and asked a whole lot more questions about the "auburn" color before I went crazy and hatched so many eggs. I assumed, being the novice that I am, that the auburns were a project Java and when they finally reached the SOP they would be recognized by APA. Shame on me. I personally have never had any dealings with Monte Bowen but his reputation precedes him and I completely respect what he has to say. I am curious though if Javas are only black then why is the mottled recognized? It is just white and black vs. gold and black and when and where did it appear? So confusing. Another question is why would the MSI claim to have hatched them from java eggs and have facilitated a breeding program for them and why would Garfield Farms not have culled them if they weren't meeting the SOP for Javas and now Behl Farms and Bill York has the group of birds from MSI and are calling them Auburn Javas. UGG my head is spinning! If they are indeed a new breed then I completely agree with ChickieLady that they need to be renamed and standards for them need to set in place. Now that my bubble of java happiness has been burst I guess the responsible thing to do is just keep my auburn beautys separate from my sq javas, enjoy them for what they are, and focus my breeding energy on what is classified as "Java" according to the SOP. There is no sense in degrading the breed by contiuning to breed outside of the standards that was never my personal intention. I wish everyone a blessed day. Happy Hatching!

No one has proven that auburn javas are NOT javas. As I mentioned in an earlier post, which no one has answered, javas were known to have red and straw colored feathers come up in both the black and mottled javas way back 100 yrs ago ( per The Mating and Breeding of Poultry by Harry Lamon/Rob Slocum, Orange Judd Publishing Company, copyright 1920).

Whether or not today's auburn javas have something else mixed in them - I don't know. Kinda hard to know for sure without having genetic testing completed. While Monte is known to even a newbie like me, his opinion is still just that - an opinion. So I wouldn't freak out and think you are doing something wrong.

If you are breeding chickens merely to keep your own flock going for a continuous supply of eggs - then who cares what color javas you are breeding as long as you get the result you wanted?

If you are breeding for standard, then you would want to keep your javas separated anyway - such as any light eyed black javas you would keep aside since they should be carrying the mottled gene - and then you can breed them with other light eyed blacks or your known mottleds to try to breed to the SOP of mottleds. And any that come up with gold/red you keep separate and can breed with your auburns to further improve your auburns.

At this point, they are all javas in my opinion. So far when I have asked questions - I'm not getting scientific much less documented facts regarding java or heritage chicken breeding/genetics. Most of what I see bantered about is opinion and conjecture. I have not heard any mandate coming from the officers of the Java Breeders of America condemning anyone for having white or auburn or mottled javas. And according to information sent out - apparently some javas with blue coloring have hatched and there may be some history of blue javas (but it seems that there isn't a lot of good record keeping over the last 100+ yrs.)

Fact remains - these are your birds. Do what makes you happy. You have no idea what the future brings and auburn javas may at one time be recognized by the APA or other entity. Heck, the APA may not even exist in the future. If you are breeding healthy birds and they make you happy - who cares what color they are? Frankly, after seeing some of the discussions on other threads, I think there are too many chicken people that obviously do not work for a living and have too much time to spend nitpicking how other people choose to manage their flocks.

Tell you - I'd really love to get some more factual answers to my questions on this subject rather than hearing whether or not someone approves of my questions. Cuz it seems like there is a lot of opinions but not many facts that people want to throw out there.