Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[Shadrach]

Have any mixed SFH's gone broody at all? Or is it only the pure ones that seem to not want to sit?

If the answer to the first question is no, then I might have to rethink this thing. Can't really have a landrace that won't sustain itself, can I?

Exactly, with the addition that land race birds are not bred, they evolve, or not, without human interference.
To state one wants to breed a landrace chicken by deliberate breeding is like hoping to live 200 years.
Most land race breeds find a paarticular niche in their environment to exploit. To me the most extraordinary examples are the cold climate landrace breeds in places like Afghanistan and China. A Finnish friend of mine is trying to save such a breed.

There have I suspect been many cases of what I'll call feral chickens trying to establish themselves. Not many make it.

 

[Shadrach]

The group on this thread can't resist looking for explanations. It's just who we are. I agree with you. We can theorize all we want but that is just theory. What counts is what happens in the flock. (And I noticed the smiley face)

I'm glad you noticed the big grin.

 

[fluffycrow]

Exactly, with the addition that land race birds are not bred, they evolve, or not, without human interference.
To state one wants to breed a landrace chicken by deliberate breeding is like hoping to live 200 years.
Most land race breeds find a paarticular niche in their environment to exploit. To me the most extraordinary examples are the cold climate landrace breeds in places like Afghanistan and China. A Finnish friend of mine is trying to save such a breed.

There have I suspect been many cases of what I'll call feral chickens trying to establish themselves. Not many make it.

I agree. But until I can find a way to get these hens to sit, I'll have to manage population somehow. When I found the first out of the coop nest site I though for sure I'd have someone sit on it.

I'd love to read about other landraces. Do the Afghan and Chinese landraces have names?

 

[Shadrach]

Being able to approximate when one is close to going broody would be a big help.

You can with a lot of hens I've found. One ot two catch one out, probably because one has been paying attention to other matters.
I found (again) most hens lay any of their eggs in a human provided nest box, move to another location for egg laying if enough options are available.
I've had hens lay in coop nest boxes and then for months and suddenly switch to a feral nest. It happens enough to be noticable. I would have liked to have found out if this was seasonaly triggered but I didn't.
Hens I've found prefer to sit in a nest site where another hen has sat and successfully hatched eggs; again, not all but enough to warrent further investigation. Notice this and you you'll have an early warning.
What this means, if it is repeatable observable behaviour is a hen knows she going to go broody when she lays the first egg of that clutch.
A three day warning that covers 90 something percent of the hens I've had sit and hatch is they start eating a lot more than normal. It could be that the hen is aware that she might not leave the nest for those first three critical days where she turns the eggs every 20 minutes or so to prevent the embyo from sticking to the shell wall. She cerainly can't accumulated enough reserves in three days of eating maybe a third more food to expect to last 21 days on and remain healthy. She may live, but she won't be able to feed her chicks. Chick rearing for mum is an energy intensive business.

On my thread for example I've been predicting a hen called Fret was thinking about going broody some weeks before she did. I know what the delay was and once the problem was sorted, she sat a few days later.
I thought Fret's pullet daughter would go broody soon and said as much on my thread. She went broody a couple of days ago.

 

[fluffycrow]

You can with a lot of hens I've found. One ot two catch one out, probably because one has been paying attention to other matters.
I found (again) most hens lay any of their eggs in a human provided nest box, move to another location for egg laying if enough options are available.
I've had hens lay in coop nest boxes and then for months and suddenly switch to a feral nest. It happens enough to be noticable. I would have liked to have found out if this was seasonaly triggered but I didn't.
Hens I've found prefer to sit in a nest site where another hen has sat and successfully hatched eggs; again, not all but enough to warrent further investigation. Notice this and you you'll have an early warning.
What this means, if it is repeatable observable behaviour is a hen knows she going to go broody when she lays the first egg of that clutch.
A three day warning that covers 90 something percent of the hens I've had sit and hatch is they start eating a lot more than normal. It could be that the hen is aware that she might not leave the nest for those first three critical days where she turns the eggs every 20 minutes or so to prevent the embyo from sticking to the shell wall. She cerainly can't accumulated enough reserves in three days of eating maybe a third more food to expect to last 21 days on and remain healthy. She may live, but she won't be able to feed her chicks. Chick rearing for mum is an energy intensive business.

On my thread for example I've been predicting a hen called Fret was thinking about going broody some weeks before she did. I know what the delay was and once the problem was sorted, she sat a few days later.
I thought Fret's pullet daughter would go broody soon and said as much on my thread. She went broody a couple of days ago.

Reading this has made me think back on previous birds I have, and instances with current birds as well.

Shad, is it possible to be at the cusp of going broody, but some factor being off, and thus never committing?

While I've never had an ISA brown of mine go broody, I have had some odd instances. At least two, maybe three ISA browns over the years had moved nest sites, and shortly after, started broody clucking. Interestingly enough, this behaviour started when the hens were about to stop egg producing regularly, or had already stepped into a more natural laying cycle (so at around 2 years old). Also quire interesting is that fact that after the ISA browns started this clucking thing, they never stopped, for the rest of their lives. I always attributed it to their messed genetics, that this is how far they could go when it came to broodiness, but maybe it was something I did wrong?

I've also had one Tsouloufati do something like that. She started using the nest box right next to the main nest box. She got very defensive whenever she was approached, making the same clucking sounds. Never sat at night in the nest, though. In her case, I thought she might've been going broody (potentially). To not risk her getting broken, I moved her to a safe pen, which looking back on it, probably did what I wanted to avoid.

So my question is, could have this been regarded as pre-broody behaviour, or am I just grasping at straws

 

[Shadrach]

Shad, is it possible to be at the cusp of going broody, but some factor being off, and thus never committing?

I believe so.
You may remember from my thread that Fret went broody a few weeks back and I've written that she was waiting. What she was waiting for was no Dig. As soon as Dig was gone she laid a few eggs, I can't remember how many, and sat. Another example of a chicken planning which a lot of people don't believe chickens are intelligent enough to do.

Very hard to get the balance right for Red Sex Links. Some do go broody. The best results I've heard of have been when their has been a rooster of the same breed.

 

[fluffycrow]

I believe so.
You may remember from my thread that Fret went broody a few weeks back and I've written that she was waiting. What she was waiting for was no Dig. As soon as Dig was gone she laid a few eggs, I can't remember how many, and sat. Another example of a chicken planning which a lot of people don't believe chickens are intelligent enough to do.

Very hard to get the balance right for Red Sex Links. Some do go broody. The best results I've heard of have been when their has been a rooster of the same breed.

I see. So there is indeed some hope. Better do what needs to be done before the season ends, then. RSLs are tricky indeed. I've never had a male, don't know if they're even sold. Doesn't really matter, don't have any ISA browns left. I don't remember all the details from the times my hens have exhibited this weird pre-broody behaviour of sorts, but the last two times it had happened, there was a male present.

Also something not mentioned this far, is the male's role in all of this. I'm convinced that the male plays an active role in either encouraging a female to brood, or by aiding his broody females

 

[LaurenRitz]

One thing I have noticed--may be a coincidence--is that since one of the hens went broody the roo is loud and obnoxious about warning of predators. A couple days ago it was a bunny. But I hear this screaming racket at the far side of the yard from where the broody is sitting. Almost like he's trying to draw attention to himself.

Since the first went broody it's been pretty common, but it never happened before.

 

[LaurenRitz]

I believe so.
You may remember from my thread that Fret went broody a few weeks back and I've written that she was waiting. What she was waiting for was no Dig. As soon as Dig was gone she laid a few eggs, I can't remember how many, and sat. Another example of a chicken planning which a lot of people don't believe chickens are intelligent enough to do.

Ah! I put the adolescent boys in the bachelor pad this week, and one of the hens disappeared the next day. I haven't found her nest yet. She may have been waiting for the boys to be gone.

 

[Shadrach]

I'm convinced that the male plays an active role in either encouraging a female to brood, or by aiding his broody females

I believe he does.
There are lots of factors in trying to establish a semi feral group which is as near to Landrace as one is likely to achieve.
I know this sounds rather odd to most people but the first thing one has to do is not want. As soon as one says I want this and I want the chickens to do that, the project is doomed.
One of the defining factors of a true land race is we haven't interfered with them much since their ancestors went feral. It's our lack of interference that made them what they are, not our wonderfull animal husbandry skills.
People have a lot of trouble with the idea that another species knows more about their business than we do. Want something like this to succeed then back off and let the chickens decide who they mate with, where they live, what they eat, with the exception of what one may have to feed them; one cant expect the nurient requirements of a hen that lays 250 eggs a year drop to one that only lays 100 overnight.

Don't restrict their movements. Allow for at least one acre per tribe. If a hen hatches and the progeny leave, or get driven out and make their own tribe, then you'll need another acre to accomodate them.

Build lots of coops, broody coops in particular.
The tribes are going to fight, all the time, every bloody dayThe females fight, the males fight. The females and males fight. The saving grace is unlike humans, they rarely kill each other. It all seems to be about saving face apart from the few irrevocable personal grievances. Sometimes one has to play judge, jury in these cases.

Pick the right breeds for the right reasons from the right place to start with.

Buy a lifetimes supply of tissues; a lot are going to die.

Most of all, live with your chickens, don't keep and breed them. Give them the vote.