Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[LaurenRitz]

If she were to go broody, I'd have one more reason to set her own eggs; her genes would introduce broodiness back into the line. Tree sleeping for me is a plus. My birds seem to do a good job by sleeping high for the most part. My very longterm plan is to range them 24/7 (not just dawn-dusk), so tree sleepers are welcome

A friend has her chickens in a converted shed and her birds sleep in the rafters. She had planned to just leave the shed door open but found it too nerve wracking. Even her JGxRIR roo has no problem with it.

 

[LaurenRitz]

Encouraging broodiness is one of my top priorities right now, but I've been utterly unsuccessful. Don't know of any other way to introduce broodiness to my line other than somehow finding a grown bird of the same landrace that is a proven broody (a plan that has a lot of biosecurity issues)

I wonder if part of the tendency to go broody might be environmental? Might a hen from a non-broody line be more likely to go broody if she was raised by a broody? Epigenetics can do some interesting things.

 

[fluffycrow]

I wonder if part of the tendency to go broody might be environmental? Might a hen from a non-broody line be more likely to go broody if she was raised by a broody? Epigenetics can do some interesting things.

So far, my answer to that question would be no. The broody-raised pullet I mentioned has not gone broody, but there's still plenty of time. On the flip side, a pullet that came from a mother that is a confirmed broody, but she herself was brooder-raised, has also not gone broody

My sample size is extremely small however, and they're still only pullets. Time will tell

 

[Shadrach]

I've slapped my fingers off the keyboard so far when reading this thread but I have to comment now and no doubt my comments will make me thoroughly unpopular.
I did this semi feral stuff for ten years in Catalonia. I learn't what little I know from keepers in Catalonia who had semi feral flocks; very very little from the internet and nothing from BYC.
You're wasting your time with hatchery stock.
You are probably wasting your time with three acres.
Perris's birds have not split into tribes because there isn't the space and the birds do not have sufficient similarities in looks or parentage.
The split after 30 birds is nonsense. I've had completely unmanaged splits with 6 to 7 birds.
Most people pick the wrong breeds for the wrong reasons.
Most people want both eggs and meat from their birds, but good feral flocks tend to comprise small agile birds, not RIRs or other large birds on the assumption that big roosters will protect the hens better than smaller roosters. If one wants to eat a lot of chicken then one needs to eat more birds, not bigger ones.
Any bird imported needs to learn about who to avoid, where to hide and what to eat and what not to eat in the environment they live in. A broody who has survived that environment is the best teacher of the next generation.
You are likely to lose birds like small change out of a hole in your pocket. Many people give up and lock their birds up after one or two get predated.
50% loss of chicks and juveniles is common for the first few years.
There is no reason to cull unless one has some strange ideas about breed purity. If one doesn't import birds and one concentrates on one breed be that a so called heritage breed, or a cross, broody management and predation will manage the population.
The nature of the land one has has a massive impact on how successfull one is likely to be. Chickens, even domesticated are still jungle creatures. They really haven't changed that much in the brain, just the body has become increasingly unsuitable for free ranging.
People tend to weed out the sick birds. Species aquire resistance through exposure and some do survive and it is those you want to further their genes; not the ones that have been lucky enough not to catch anything serious.

 

[Perris]

I've slapped my fingers off the keyboard so far when reading this thread but I have to comment now and no doubt my comments will make me thoroughly unpopular.
I did this semi feral stuff for ten years in Catalonia. I learn't what little I know from keepers in Catalonia who had semi feral flocks; very very little from the internet and nothing from BYC.
You're wasting your time with hatchery stock.
You are probably wasting your time with three acres.
Perris's birds have not split into tribes because there isn't the space and the birds do not have sufficient similarities in looks or parentage.
The split after 30 birds is nonsense. I've had completely unmanaged splits with 6 to 7 birds.
Most people pick the wrong breeds for the wrong reasons.
Most people want both eggs and meat from their birds, but good feral flocks tend to comprise small agile birds, not RIRs or other large birds on the assumption that big roosters will protect the hens better than smaller roosters. If one wants to eat a lot of chicken then one needs to eat more birds, not bigger ones.
Any bird imported needs to learn about who to avoid, where to hide and what to eat and what not to eat in the environment they live in. A broody who has survived that environment is the best teacher of the next generation.
You are likely to lose birds like small change out of a hole in your pocket. Many people give up and lock their birds up after one or two get predated.
50% loss of chicks and juveniles is common for the first few years.
There is no reason to cull unless one has some strange ideas about breed purity. If one doesn't import birds and one concentrates on one breed be that a so called heritage breed, or a cross, broody management and predation will manage the population.
The nature of the land one has has a massive impact on how successfull one is likely to be. Chickens, even domesticated are still jungle creatures. They really haven't changed that much in the brain, just the body has become increasingly unsuitable for free ranging.
People tend to weed out the sick birds. Species aquire resistance through exposure and some do survive and it is those you want to further their genes; not the ones that have been lucky enough not to catch anything serious.

I agree with the vast majority of this. However, since neither my nor my neighbours' properties are fenced (the hedges are porous), this

Perris's birds have not split into tribes because there isn't the space

won't work to explain why my birds stick together. Personally I think it must have something to do with not needing to roam so far to find all the nutrients they need.

And I am not convinced about 'birds of a feather flock together' as a principle for them subdividing either. Apart from the fact that real landraces are highly variable in appearance (in my experience), some bird species look so different in the male and the female version that biologists used to think they were different species. They must identify with each other despite their radically different looks.

And experientially, I've got quite a lot of partridge plumage birds now, while the closely related Swedish Flower hens look almost like clones of their mum. There are certainly enough of each to make a small flock. But either of these types sticking together, apart from the rest, even for a few minutes during the day, is so rare that I tend to go grab the camera to try to capture the moment - and usually by the time I've got back with it, they've merged and dissolved into a mixed group again. I think personality has more to do with who they buddy up with.

 

[Perris]

It does bypass snake season.

that sounds like a good fit with your environment then. Natural forces have been selecting what fits what environment for ever. We meddle with it to our disadvantage, usually. We think we know better, but usually we are just arrogant as well as ignorant.

 

[Cammo77]

Great topic and an interesting hearing everyone's experience and opinions. I don't have a breeding program of any kind at the moment but when this does happen I will be taking a few points from people's comments. Ideally I would like just healthy easy to manage birds that can free range well but won't be 100% free range. Feed is not getting cheaper and would like them to have a more natural diet anyway. I garden organically so would like to have my chickens the same. I plan on building big runs and plant different things in their run to benefit their health. Thanks for starting the thread.

 

[LaurenRitz]

People tend to weed out the sick birds. Species aquire resistance through exposure and some do survive and it is those you want to further their genes; not the ones that have been lucky enough not to catch anything serious.

Very like plant breeding. They need to experience various forms of stress.

Basically with my birds I let most things go. If a bird needs my assistance to survive an illness, rather than just letting it die (which is my inclination) I'll rescue and rehome. From my perspective that bird has removed itself from my breeding project.

 

[Shadrach]

I think this is often where things go wrong. I didn't have any type of breeding project in mind. The birds and nature tend to know what works best and I let them get on with it.

 

[Shadrach]

I didn't get sick birds. I got lots of injuries and those that could be saved I treated. I had five tribes at one point with 12.5 acres of land and a National Park surounding the property.
This PDF is the three tribes left when I left Catalonia.