Large Fowl Cochin Thread

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
Haven't tried that cross, not sure of the partridge genetic makeup, I do believe they carry a extended black gene and a dark brown gene not sure what else or what the out come of a black x partridge cross would be. I have too many irons in the fire to try another cross right now. If that cross did work the type and size of the partridge could be improved greatly in a matter of a few generations. I am using them more for the dark brown gene but have also bred them pure to keep some around, I like the pattern.
I have a black hen that is 8 1/2 years old that just laid her first egg of this year! She is the only bird left of an original cross I used to develop my line of blacks. I'll put her with a good cockerel tomorrow and hatch all the eggs she lays, she is a very good hen that has never been beaten in her breed and she tends to produce birds of very good type and size. Hard to believe a large fowl hen can stay productive that long, I lost two of her sisters and a daughter this year due to old age, I will miss this girl when she is gone. Good genetics must be maintained and propogated for as long as they can be; everything on my place be it black, white or mottled can trace their foundation back to this old lady.

Bo

I have noticed that both bantam and LF partridges are a little smaller that other colors. Is it my imagination?

With the Large Partridge, there are limited strains, and therefore they've become inbred. Inbreeding decreases the size. An outcross will increase the size in one generation. An outcross to Blacks as Rudy an Bo have discussed is the best idea. You can get back to a basically Partridge looking bird in 2 generations. I've done that cross and my Partridge are much improved in size. As far as Bantams go the same holds true, however, my Partridge bantams are the same size as my Blacks, Whites or Buffs. Selective breeding is the key.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Quote:
I can rememdy your lack of cochins

While I do like bantams, I am a large fowl enthusiast to say the least. I think Forrest likes the fact we have the big birds and two of his favorites.

Bo

Oh now there ya go! Sweet talking me into dreams of largefowl Cochins! WHEN I have more room, I am gonna have to take you up on that offer...

I do love your blacks...see there we are, talking about getting some! Shameful Bo!

 

[southpaw52]

Hi all, I am also glad to see this thread. I do have three Banty Cochins, but have finally found my LF cochins. I have five chicks. Any help deciding pullet or Roo would be appreciated.

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Thanks,
Anne

 

[Bo Garrett]

Quote:
I have noticed that both bantam and LF partridges are a little smaller that other colors. Is it my imagination?

With the Large Partridge, there are limited strains, and therefore they've become inbred. Inbreeding decreases the size. An outcross will increase the size in one generation. An outcross to Blacks as Rudy an Bo have discussed is the best idea. You can get back to a basically Partridge looking bird in 2 generations. I've done that cross and my Partridge are much improved in size. As far as Bantams go the same holds true, however, my Partridge bantams are the same size as my Blacks, Whites or Buffs. Selective breeding is the key.

O.K. Rudy, there is our answer, thanks Tom for the good information.

Bo

 

[OwensMom]

Interesting and timely information. I have some partridge LF Cochins in the incubator right now. That means that I will be working on size. So first generation I breed to a LF black. Then those offspring would be bred to ? Back to partridge? This would be the F2 generation correct? I would need to select out the largest hens when I breed correct? What colors of the first generation would I breed? Never thought to start a project but one may have been presented to me!! I would appreciate any help that anyone can give me. Thanks

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
This is what I recommend. First, however, it's important to state a couple things up front. If you are going to do this to improve your Partridge Cochins, it will produce a bunch of culls. More importantly if you are going to do it, you need to use the absolute best typed Blacks that you can get ahold of or you are WASTING YOUR TIME. Since the intent is to improve type and size, if you don't start with both of those in the Blacks you use, it makes no sense to do it in the first place. So....

First cross - Partridge male x Black female. the resulting f1 birds will all be black with gold (red) in hackle and saddles (cockerels). Select the best typed f1 females from this cross, and a couple of nice large males with as good type as possible. Size should be much improved in the f1 birds.

2nd year - Partridge male X f1 female. Again, use the best typed f1 pullets for this mating. For more genetic diversity, if you had a couple well patterned Partridge males, you could set up two pens. Focus on the pattern in the male. Use a male with as crisp as you can get hackle and saddle markings and good primary and secondary markings. The males (IMO) hold the key to well colored/patterned Partridge birds. From this cross you should see some "partridge" birds. The pattern in the females won't be as crisp as it should be but you'll be headed in the right direction.

If you had the space, you could breed f1 x f1. While I've not tried this, it should produce a small percentage of Partridge offspring that would most likley be better in type than the Partridge male x f1 female.

I've also not done the f1 male x Partridge female, as I didn't think it would produce what I was looking for.

From the 2nd year breeding you should be able to select for type and color and then breed from there. You might need a second dose of pure partridge but that's not what I've noted. It will require a couple years to get back to crisp penciling over the cushion of the females.

This 2010 pullet is a result of what I described above. She's an f3 bird. Fairly well penciled in the breast and shoulders, but loses definition as she finishes out through her cushion. Good head and body depth/thigh fluff were picked up from the infusion of Black.

 

[OwensMom]

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure that my black rooster is as good in type as he should be. The problem may be getting the quality birds that i need. I'll keep looking for a type black rooster, hatch out these eggs and then go from there. Your point is well taken. Unless you have the genetic power to begin this adventure there is no use in starting. Thanks again.

 

[OwensMom]

Sorry, don't know why i said rooster. I'm fixated on the rooster. I certainly don't have the quality hen. BTW, your hen is lovely.

 

[rtroxel]

Quote:
This is what I recommend. First, however, it's important to state a couple things up front. If you are going to do this to improve your Partridge Cochins, it will produce a bunch of culls. More importantly if you are going to do it, you need to use the absolute best typed Blacks that you can get ahold of or you are WASTING YOUR TIME. Since the intent is to improve type and size, if you don't start with both of those in the Blacks you use, it makes no sense to do it in the first place. So....

First cross - Partridge male x Black female. the resulting f1 birds will all be black with gold (red) in hackle and saddles (cockerels). Select the best typed f1 females from this cross, and a couple of nice large males with as good type as possible. Size should be much improved in the f1 birds.

2nd year - Partridge male X f1 female. Again, use the best typed f1 pullets for this mating. For more genetic diversity, if you had a couple well patterned Partridge males, you could set up two pens. Focus on the pattern in the male. Use a male with as crisp as you can get hackle and saddle markings and good primary and secondary markings. The males (IMO) hold the key to well colored/patterned Partridge birds. From this cross you should see some "partridge" birds. The pattern in the females won't be as crisp as it should be but you'll be headed in the right direction.

If you had the space, you could breed f1 x f1. While I've not tried this, it should produce a small percentage of Partridge offspring that would most likley be better in type than the Partridge male x f1 female.

I've also not done the f1 male x Partridge female, as I didn't think it would produce what I was looking for.

From the 2nd year breeding you should be able to select for type and color and then breed from there. You might need a second dose of pure partridge but that's not what I've noted. It will require a couple years to get back to crisp penciling over the cushion of the females.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/15970_dscn0767.jpg
This 2010 pullet is a result of what I described above. She's an f3 bird. Fairly well penciled in the breast and shoulders, but loses definition as she finishes out through her cushion. Good head and body depth/thigh fluff were picked up from the infusion of Black.

Tom, Glad to have you on the thread!

I will tell you that one time I got a nice male and tried this, but he wasn't nice enough and I ended up scrapping the project. I'm thinking I'll have to pay a lot more for the next time I try it

My partridge were almost as good as he was and in the F2 generation, I don't think I did a very good job of separating out the offspring, because I didn't get any partridge chicks that I remember (it's been probably 6-7 years ago). Anyway, it was a bust.

I do know that right now, I think my Partridge are at least heavy enough to compete anywhere, but I don't think they have the fluff to make them look big enough. I've got males that are easily 12-13 pounds when in good condition. They looked a little small at Shawnee. What was your honest opinion, Bo? You saw them and got some.

With this cross, the biggest thing that worries me is loss of color. Tom, you've done this with bantams? Or just the LF? I really don't want to lose the lacing. How long does it take to get it back?

If you crossed f1s and got approx 25% partridge, should the color be equivalent to the f1/parent cross? I would kind of suspect it to be inferior.

Also, why do you think the male is the key to the color? With my Wyandottes, I've basically decided the opposite, or basically that you can't produce excellent females from excellent males and vice versa because the patterns are different in each sex. You want excellent lacing in the female hackle and throughout the wings and body, but you can't have as much lacing on the male because SOP says his hackle, wings, etc. should be clearly defined. You want a laced breast on the female but a completely black breast is required on the male, thus it is difficult to maintain that lacing on the breast in the female with a male with no red breast.

I've set up color and type pens this year with males that I would have culled for color per the SOP but are laced all the way back to the saddle and under the breast. Not just red. There is visible lacing on the breast especially. After looking back at the old Wyandotte books, those are the males they used to call "pullet breeders." And they look pretty bad color-wise, but I started looking at the daughters of this one male and was really impressed with their lacing. We'll see what this year's offspring turn out like. I've got fertile eggs in the 'bator

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
This is what I recommend. First, however, it's important to state a couple things up front. If you are going to do this to improve your Partridge Cochins, it will produce a bunch of culls. More importantly if you are going to do it, you need to use the absolute best typed Blacks that you can get ahold of or you are WASTING YOUR TIME. Since the intent is to improve type and size, if you don't start with both of those in the Blacks you use, it makes no sense to do it in the first place. So....

First cross - Partridge male x Black female. the resulting f1 birds will all be black with gold (red) in hackle and saddles (cockerels). Select the best typed f1 females from this cross, and a couple of nice large males with as good type as possible. Size should be much improved in the f1 birds.

2nd year - Partridge male X f1 female. Again, use the best typed f1 pullets for this mating. For more genetic diversity, if you had a couple well patterned Partridge males, you could set up two pens. Focus on the pattern in the male. Use a male with as crisp as you can get hackle and saddle markings and good primary and secondary markings. The males (IMO) hold the key to well colored/patterned Partridge birds. From this cross you should see some "partridge" birds. The pattern in the females won't be as crisp as it should be but you'll be headed in the right direction.

If you had the space, you could breed f1 x f1. While I've not tried this, it should produce a small percentage of Partridge offspring that would most likley be better in type than the Partridge male x f1 female.

I've also not done the f1 male x Partridge female, as I didn't think it would produce what I was looking for.

From the 2nd year breeding you should be able to select for type and color and then breed from there. You might need a second dose of pure partridge but that's not what I've noted. It will require a couple years to get back to crisp penciling over the cushion of the females.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/15970_dscn0767.jpg
This 2010 pullet is a result of what I described above. She's an f3 bird. Fairly well penciled in the breast and shoulders, but loses definition as she finishes out through her cushion. Good head and body depth/thigh fluff were picked up from the infusion of Black.

Tom, Glad to have you on the thread!

I will tell you that one time I got a nice male and tried this, but he wasn't nice enough and I ended up scrapping the project. I'm thinking I'll have to pay a lot more for the next time I try it

My partridge were almost as good as he was and in the F2 generation, I don't think I did a very good job of separating out the offspring, because I didn't get any partridge chicks that I remember (it's been probably 6-7 years ago). Anyway, it was a bust.

I do know that right now, I think my Partridge are at least heavy enough to compete anywhere, but I don't think they have the fluff to make them look big enough. I've got males that are easily 12-13 pounds when in good condition. They looked a little small at Shawnee. What was your honest opinion, Bo? You saw them and got some.

With this cross, the biggest thing that worries me is loss of color. Tom, you've done this with bantams? Or just the LF? I really don't want to lose the lacing. How long does it take to get it back?

If you crossed f1s and got approx 25% partridge, should the color be equivalent to the f1/parent cross? I would kind of suspect it to be inferior.

Also, why do you think the male is the key to the color? With my Wyandottes, I've basically decided the opposite, or basically that you can't produce excellent females from excellent males and vice versa because the patterns are different in each sex. You want excellent lacing in the female hackle and throughout the wings and body, but you can't have as much lacing on the male because SOP says his hackle, wings, etc. should be clearly defined. You want a laced breast on the female but a completely black breast is required on the male, thus it is difficult to maintain that lacing on the breast in the female with a male with no red breast.

I've set up color and type pens this year with males that I would have culled for color per the SOP but are laced all the way back to the saddle and under the breast. Not just red. There is visible lacing on the breast especially. After looking back at the old Wyandotte books, those are the males they used to call "pullet breeders." And they look pretty bad color-wise, but I started looking at the daughters of this one male and was really impressed with their lacing. We'll see what this year's offspring turn out like. I've got fertile eggs in the 'bator

y
I have always had good luck keying on the male for color. While the patterns are different in Partridge males and females, the different sections of the bird still relate to each other regardless of sex. True, double mating will produce better and more males/females depending on what you've double mated for. However, with this cross keep in mind that you are trying to improve type and size. you are taking a patterned bird and crossing it to a solid colored bird. It stands to reason that you'll lose some of the clarity in the pattern, but through selective breeding and harsh culling you can get back to where you were. The best patterned Partridge Cochin in the world won't go very far in a deep class if it doesn't have the size, shape, depth of body, and fluff that makes a Cochin a Cochin. I've only done the cross to Black with the large Cochins. Not the bantams. The main flaw in the bantams is that they females are still too light in ground color. Some of the large Partridge are that way too. Straw colored hackles/saddles are too light. They need to be that deep mahogany red color. So after all of that, assume this is a 3-5 year project crossing to a black.