Lavender and Blue genes - cross outcome?

[BGMatt]

I guess that's what im not understanding is what those negative issues are. I do see that the colors will look the same though. I don't understand why that would not be desirable. Thanks for taking the time to write back. I have asked google this question and yahoo lol, and this is the only answer that the whole world has never been able to answer for me.
I do understand working on the lav to work out issues and problems...so don't people do this by crossing the lav to blacks on occasion? I know the answer is yes. Leaking colors, bad toes, eyes whatever the problem may be...I understand breeding for character traits, I do it in plants as well. I understand color combinations and possibilities. Why is this one still so vague and unanswered? Does anyone else agree and see my point? I am new to chicken breeding but not to understanding breeding programs and genetics. This is a new hobby for me. I'm three years into it and this is the first year I have seen results of all my hard work. I should have been reading all 3 of those years but I didn't. Im just realizing the potentials in what im doing. I don't mean to be short or seem flip with response or intend to beat a dead horse but the overall information online about this is stuff is so limited. So thank you to this forum for teaching me all I know. lol

I think all this is coming from my intrigue with Isabel colors...uniform tone and very mute, creamy and pastel, but still glowing. And I know what to do to get it and I do have a breeding plan, (hope im not hijacking a thread here, but I wanted to ask the same question as the OP did) I've read the color genetics threads for the porcelains, lavenders, isabels, buffs, all of it. I think the blue cream when done right is just as striking so I wanna see what I can do with those as well but people disagree on if they should have a pattern or not. Well, that andalusian blue has the pattern we need for that, so there again, is my question about using this blue instead of the blacks. I am starting to think the only way I learn is to experience it. My wacky ideas are usually ridiculous anyways and I realize then 'I shoulda listened' lol

The reason it's not done is numerous. It will destroy lacing in the Blues that carry Lavender (anyone who has ever bred blue will stop at this right now, lacing is HARD to get right in the first place). Since Lavender and Andalusian Blues are on different locus, and Lavender requires two copies to express it is a record keeping nightmare to know which birds do and do not carry lab, since it can hide really easily and get lost in the normal blue genetics and make result unpredictable, and the one of the worst things to have in a breeding program is unpredictable results. The reason the outcross to blacks is done is the lavender gene often has an adverse affect on feather quality, a tendency to make the feathers narrow and stringy. Since Blacks of any breed are usually in a good shape type and feather quality wise, and it is a simple and predictable outcross, it is common practice. Same thing with Porcelain and Mille Fleur, or Isabella and Partridge, if you're going to breed the diluted variety it's a good idea to keep some of the non-diluted black based birds around to cross in every few years to keep feather quality.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

lav/lav birds often have difficulty hatching, many have plumage issues in their shoulder area

 

[Manningjw]

Well, if you still have the desire to do this, I would love to see your results. Setting up a simple punnet square with the two different traits I retract my previous recommendation of how to achieve BlueLavender chickens.

To start with I would breed a Splash(double diluting blue gene) to a Lavender. The resulting F1 generation would express 100% blue genes and ALL would carry the recessive Lavender gene.

Next step, pick your favorite bird resulting from the first cross (F1 generation) and breed that bird back to pure Lavender chickens. The resulting cross would be 25% BlueLavender chickens, 25% Blue carrying lavender, 25% pure Lavender and 25% Black expression carrying lavender.

i set up some punnet squares to explain what I am talking about.



The first punnet square is what I would recommend - The F1 generation from the Splash x Lav cross is crossed back to pure Lavender. The second punnet square is F1 x F1 which yields only 1/8, or 12.5% Blue Lavender birds and very unpredictable results.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Well, if you still have the desire to do this, I would love to see your results. Setting up a simple punnet square with the two different traits I retract my previous recommendation of how to achieve BlueLavender chickens.

To start with I would breed a Splash(double diluting blue gene) to a Lavender. The resulting F1 generation would express 100% blue genes and ALL would carry the recessive Lavender gene.

Next step, pick your favorite bird resulting from the first cross (F1 generation) and breed that bird back to pure Lavender chickens. The resulting cross would be 25% BlueLavender chickens, 25% Blue carrying lavender, 25% pure Lavender and 25% Black expression carrying lavender.

i set up some punnet squares to explain what I am talking about.



The first punnet square is what I would recommend - The F1 generation from the Splash x Lav cross is crossed back to pure Lavender. The second punnet square is F1 x F1 which yields only 1/8, or 12.5% Blue Lavender birds and very unpredictable results.

Speaking from experience, you will not be able to distinguish with any reliability the birds that are lav/lav from those that are not when the bird is also blue or splash.

 

[Manningjw]

Speaking from experience, you will not be able to distinguish with any reliability the birds that are lav/lav from those that are not when the bird is also blue or splash.

That is very interesting and unexpected. I would have thought that lav would dilute the blue further than a non-lav blue. Looking at pictures of "Lavender" birds they appear quite a bit lighter in color than "blue" birds, particularly around the head. I would have thought that the darker blue around the head would be significantly lighter in color than that of a non-lav bird.

One way to test to see if you have a blue lavender bird instead of only blue would be to breed it back to lavender. If you get ANY blacks in the resulting cross than you most certainly did not have a blue lavender bird.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I don't know why they are not doubly diluted; just that they aren't. The lightest blues have about the same depth of colour as lavenders.

 

[Morgan Jones]

I don't breed silkies, but I have bred blue into lavender, because I wanted the type from the blue. Other than the type I wanted, there was nothing particular to gain from adding blue. My lavs with blue looked like lavs except the colour was uneven, particularly around the hackle area.

 

[Thespoiledchicken]

I have a question- Is it possible to have a blue diluter gene hide in a Black chicken that is also split for Lavender?

I ask because I have a group of Black Ameraucanas that are all split for Lavender that I am breeding. I am getting the expected Black and Lavender chicks except twice now I have gotten Blue chicks- or what I am assuming are Blue chicks. They are a dark grey color. I have gotten 2 of these Blue chicks out of about 100 chicks hatched now.

Is it possible that Blue can hide or maybe tag along with Lavender in a Black bird? I am perplexed because I thought a black bird could not hide a diluting gene except the recessive ones

What could be happening here?

Thanks for any insights

 

[Morgan Jones]

The blue gene & lavender genes are not linked so I see no reason for the presence of one to make a greater probability of also having the other. There is a darker grey form of lavender, probably the effects of melanisers. You will soon know if they are really blue by the way the gene behaves when you breed it.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Blues can be so dark as to look black.