Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis

[HummelBee]

I told my husband about this and was telling him I was wishing you'd started years ago so I could've stumbled on this thread and the end result without having to wait. I hate suspense! I'll just have to admire it as you go along, and those cute little chickies.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Probably it is more sliver than a Weimaraner - ?  They always have a striking color too....

Same genes are responsible for that color in both breeds.
That is what i heard was the problem with silver labs was that a lot believe weimaraners were crossed in for the color because labs didnt carry the dilute gene. Dogs only have one dilute gene.

This is wonderful work! My husband and I breed "silver" labs, which is just a chocolate lab with two recessive dilute genes washing out the the chocolate to a wonderful smokey color. One of the concerns, other than perfecting the dogs' conformation to breed standards of course is the potential of an overly washed out coat. I may bring up reintroducing silver factored chocolates to "refresh" coat color to my husband after reading this. We haven't run into it yet, but have heard criticisms from silver haters that it's a sure dead end to the silver lab breeding program after several generations. Who'da thunk the answer might be on a chicken forum!

So do Weimaraners have issues with washing out?
I dont know the breed very well but was thinking they breed their color generation to generation to generation without issue.

 

[HummelBee]

No Weimaraners do not have troubles with washing out. But silvers weren't the result of Weimaraners being crossed in, just a recessive gene popping up, similarly to yellow and chocolate, at which point there were accusations of sneaking different breeds in as well. There's speculation, but no real research being done to find out 100% that the dilute works on the other colors as well without anyone being as aware (see yellow, the range varies from Fox Red to Cream, which is almost white) which would indicate the gene causing the dilution has been present in labs all along. And no, it is a recessive, meaning they have to have a double dose in order for it to express. A dog with bbdd is a silver lab, a bbDd is a silver factored lab, meaning it can throw silver pups if paired with a silver or another silver factored, and a bbDD would be a non silver factored chocolate. There's no true proof it will cause wash out, but is a concern some have because of the newness of the silvers. So far they seem to be breeding true and without excess dilution of the brown. But, to my knowledge, no one is more than 6 or 7 generations in. Don't quote me on it.

 

[The Moonshiner]

No Weimaraners do not have troubles with washing out. But silvers weren't the result of Weimaraners being crossed in, just a recessive gene popping up, similarly to yellow and chocolate, at which point there were accusations of sneaking different breeds in as well. There's speculation, but no real research being done to find out 100% that the dilute works on the other colors as well without anyone being as aware (see yellow, the range varies from Fox Red to Cream, which is almost white) which would indicate the gene causing the dilution has been present in labs all along. And no, it is a recessive, meaning they have to have a double dose in order for it to express. A dog with bbdd is a silver lab, a bbDd is a silver factored lab, meaning it can throw silver pups if paired with a silver or another silver factored, and a bbDD would be a non silver factored chocolate. There's no true proof it will cause wash out, but is a concern some have because of the newness of the silvers. So far they seem to be breeding true and without excess dilution of the brown. But, to my knowledge, no one is more than 6 or 7 generations in. Don't quote me on it.

I know the dilute gene and how it works. I might of been a little confusing when i said there was only one. To clearify i meant there was only one because with chickens there are a few different ones and they act differently. With the silver labs its all about that one dilute gene that causes all the arguing.
I dont know where it came from or how long it has been there myself. I dont think it has anything to do with the range of color in the yellows. Some colors can just range in shades which is what i think of the yellows. I do believe it can be added to yellow to lighten it but not the reason for all the lighter ones.
It would also make blacks blue which idk if anyone breeds blue labs. I would wonder why there is this new silver color but not diluted yellows or diluted blacks if there isnt.
Im no expert on the lab colors or goings on within the breed. I do know danes and i know when they started coming out with the chocolate gene with them and all the same kind of crazyness that brought.
Of course danes had your same dilute gene youre working with making blacks into blues for a long time and then later also adding it to a chocolate.
Just found your post interesting and made me curious. With danes i know what the concerns were with the gene but never heard of washing out with them either.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks for that info. !!

Wouldn't it be ultra nice if there was a way that lavender in the chicken didn't require refreshing after a few generations -- but either way is OK - because the fact that as we now understand it, it does require that.... Is going to always guarantee that there will be genetic diversity even in closely bred lines. For example - pure Isabels could be outcrossed to a really nice brown leghorn whenever fresh blood was needed.

Today - Mr. Isabel -- got caught and put in a show-training cage for photo ops. It wasn't his favorite thing, and the weather started to get bright and sunny, so you will have to ignore the shadows a bit -- but here is a picture trying to show some of his coloration:

Bright sun blows out the coloration in photos -- and with Isabel they photo nicely -- but you also need to see them up close and personal.

Sorry for the stripes from the wires, those are his neck hackles....

This one (above) captures his saddles --

Here you seee some of his tail feathers -- and in the tail feathers there are little 'tiger stripes' -- which, as I understand it, occurse as the feathers are growing out -- and the dilution gene takes a nap.

Or more accurately, I guess you would say that darker stripe is nearer to the color the feather would be undiluted.

 

[HummelBee]

There are diluted blacks. They're called charcoal. More rare even than silvers. But most charcoal breeders will insist it's not a dilute I think to side step the controversy. They have to register them as blacks though so I'd beg to differ. I think the hype about wash out with dogs is just that, hype, I have yet to see it. But then again, there are lab breeders who have been at it longer than I've been alive. But if wash out were to occur I would think applying these principles Kathy is discussing about adding a strain of refreshing color would work on the dogs as well. Also, the only thing I know about Danes is that my husband nixed that idea quick when I wanted one haha. And of course @ChicKat you have a great point about new blood, it would be disappointing to have so much work end in deformed chickens, or dogs for that matter. Also, that boy is stunning!

 

[HummelBee]

And I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were speaking specifically about the gene that causes the dilution, yes, there's only one, I apologize if I sounded patronizing.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Wouldn't it be ultra nice if there was a way that lavender in the chicken didn't require refreshing after a few generations -- but either way is OK - because the fact that as we now understand it, it does require that......

Or does it?
I raised self blue cochin bantams and had issues and used blacks with them.
I raised lavender orpingtons and had issues. Was limited on blacks so couldnt use as often as i would of liked and had more issues then i did with the cochins.
Now a long long time ago i raised porcelain d'uccles. I never had issues with them, ever and i never refreshed them.
Hum......

 

[ChicKat]

Or does it?
I raised self blue cochin bantams and had issues and used blacks with them.
I raised lavender orpingtons and had issues. Was limited on blacks so couldnt use as often as i would of liked and had more issues then i did with the cochins.
Now a long long time ago i raised porcelain d'uccles. I never had issues with them, ever and i never refreshed them.
Hum......

This is so so thought provoking!

Add to that the things that lavender can do to the feathers -- and at some points we thought that Isabel could make the bird immune - but then remember that picture of the Isabella cockerel with the 'permanent pin feathers'


When I look closely at some of the feathers -- they do look a bit messy-- which lavender can also do -- but - I don't think it is so much genetic feather damage as it is the messy baby feathers of growing in and also being handled -- later I will try to zeron in on that.

 

[ChicKat]

There are diluted blacks. They're called charcoal. More rare even than silvers. But most charcoal breeders will insist it's not a dilute I think to side step the controversy. They have to register them as blacks though so I'd beg to differ. I think the hype about wash out with dogs is just that, hype, I have yet to see it. But then again, there are lab breeders who have been at it longer than I've been alive. But if wash out were to occur I would think applying these principles Kathy is discussing about adding a strain of refreshing color would work on the dogs as well. Also, the only thing I know about Danes is that my husband nixed that idea quick when I wanted one haha. And of course @ChicKat you have a great point about new blood, it would be disappointing to have so much work end in deformed chickens, or dogs for that matter. Also, that boy is stunning!

glad that you brought that up -- Some say in-breeding chickens is really good - at the very least 'line breeding'. -- Somewhere I read that for up to 17 generations you can inbreed chickens and there is no degradation. And once upon a time on the farms that is what people always did. They just bred their own chickens to their own chickens.

When Cream Legbars first came to the USA there was discussion about how to make sure that there would be genetic diversity -- I think GFF had a couple of breeding trios and all USA CLs came from them, then GFF imported a couple of other lines, and then the Jill Rees birds and got rid of everything else, and then I think they got some of their original genetics back, I've kind of lost track.

The Isbar (now called Silverudd's Blue) was a different story. Isbars seemed to be so very inbred that there were hatchability problems, and then survivability for the first week after hatch, and the birds were very small (one sign of inbreeding) -etc. So: hard to hatch, hard to incubate and not really disease resistant. They are great birds, and they lay varied colors of green eggs -- very calm. It was just difficult to get them off the ground because of such difficulty and heart break in hatching and raising -- and I think that was directly due to lots of inbreeding. People would buy chicks from one source and say -- Yay- I got a male and a female -- then pair those and sell the eggs to others and the spiral was a death spiral..... Then people wised up and sourced birds from at least different premises -- and that alone seemed to help a lot. In general they are still slight-built petite birds -- but lay some good sized eggs --

Lucky for me, I had two different Isabel males paired with different Cream Legbar females -- and started with 4 split cockerels -- to pair back to Isabels (some of the Isabels could have been their mother) - but the first splits were hybrid of two different breeds - so there would be some genetic shuffling there. Then from those pairings - I can keep track of the male lines (but there were multiple Isabels that were cookie-cutter similar and their eggs weren't separately identified other than by pen- and the original split guys I know the exact parentage. -- so now I have the ability to have 4 "famlies" - with the addition of a 5th that happened crossing Legbar male. Those are the current grow-outs, and they will be identified by legbands by 'family'.



The ones on the left were hatched 1/31 and the ones in the pen within the pen -- with a mail box to play in -- were hatched 2/26 and one 3/2 - so there are only 6 growing out -- 2 males and 4 females - in trios from different pens/cockerels. - then the ones in the brooder now -- (once I got a bigger incubator) -- were hatched 3/21 so they are just little tykes......

Thus far - it's "easy" to tell who's who - because the ages are so different.... And come autumn it will be time to narrow down to the prospective future breeders, but for now - they can all grow out. Luckily there are two barred birds one male and one female in that very first hatch -- and I'm pretty sure 1 barred bird in that second hatch. female.


Little male -- you can see faint barring. He's very very light -- but I have hopes that as he grows he will add color.



Female from that first hatch -- she is showing significant contrast between the darks and the lights. Her head is quite dark. Neither of these is crested.