Trying to ID Chick's Moms and Color Genetics

[labelo]

Thanks again! I'm stuck on comb types at the moment, I am looking at different sites and videos but haven't found a resource that includes a lot of photos. If Mama A is rrPP, that's nice for me, because I want to breed toward pea or cushion combs (as Papa's frostbitten comb attests). I have...well, I guess my pullets for this year will complicate that as I've got a wyandotte and two chanteclers, which means I'm adding in cushion (not sure on the genes for that yet) and rose combs...as you can see, I haven't even gotten to the color stuff yet.

Yeah, I also have a hard time finding good comb pictures, especially of chicks. Cushion combs are R_P_ with a smooth modifier (basically, a walnut comb+a gene for smooth combs, not sure what letter is used). The smooth gene reduces the bumpiness in a comb (in single combs that looks like fewer or more rounded "spikes").

The good news is your wyandotte and chanteclers should help you breed in the rose/pea/cushion comb genes that you're looking for. You just want to avoid rrpp, which would give you single combs vulnerable to frostbite. Of course, it will be hard to breed out completely, because of the recessives, and could always pop up in a subsequent generation.

 

[Wildgrass]

That's about as far as I've gotten in my reading. I'm starting with a lot of single combs, but if I keep track of who's carrying it (which is everyone right now, until I replace Papa), I don't think it will be difficult to breed toward homozygous RR and/or PP. Especially if I "tested" a bird with a single-combed mate. But anyway! Except for wondering if Mama A actually has a cushion comb, I think I've got the comb stuff figured out now. On to color and patterning!

 

[NatJ]

In addition, the legbar has a barring gene, which makes the black alternate in lines with the red (which in her case, has been diluted to cream by yet another gene). It's not super obvious in females, since they don't express a lot of black, but is more obvious in males, especially their hackle/saddle feathers.

The barring gene mostly makes white lines across the feathers (obvious example: Barred Rock), but the lines are much less obvious on some other colors. I agree it does seem to make a different effect on the colors of a Legbar than on most other birds with the barring gene.

Comb types:
The pea comb gene is considered incompletely dominant. One pea comb gene and one not-pea gene (P/p+) will often produce a comb like Mama A the white Easter Egger has. Two pea comb genes (P/P) will usually produce a pea comb that is smaller and tidier, typically found in breeds like Brahma and Ameraucana and Dark Cornish (but not the white Cornish Cross meat chickens-- it's been bred out of them.) I have seen some pea comb heterozygotes (P/p+) that looked almost like frostbitten single combs: standing up like a single blade, with no points on top. They were a little thicker than normal single combs, but not by enough to be very obvious.

Two pea comb genes (P/P) will also make the wattles smaller, as compared with birds having other comb genes. Muff/beard also makes the wattles smaller.

The pea comb gene and the blue egg gene are also linked (close together on one chromosome, so they are usually inherited together.) The linkage can be any possible combination:
pea/blue egg (Ameraucana)
pea/not-blue egg (Brahma)
not-pea/blue egg (Cream Legbar)
not-pea/not-blue egg (Speckled Sussex, most other common breeds)

If Mama A the white Easter Egger has one pea comb gene and one blue egg gene, there is a good chance they are linked. That would mean that pea-combed chicks from her would lay blue or green eggs and not-pea-combed chicks from her would lay brown/cream/white colors of eggs.

If Mama C has a single comb and lays blue eggs, then obviously she has the linkage of not-pea comb with blue eggs.

...cushion (not sure on the genes for that yet) and rose combs...

Cushion should be R_ PP

Rose comb is considered completely dominant, so you cannot tell which birds are RR or Rr except by test mating or knowing their ancestry. Since pea comb is incompletely dominant, you will typically see a larger comb on birds with Pp, which means a proper small cushion comb is PP not Pp.

The good news is your wyandotte and chanteclers should help you breed in the rose/pea/cushion comb genes that you're looking for. You just want to avoid rrpp, which would give you single combs vulnerable to frostbite. Of course, it will be hard to breed out completely, because of the recessives, and could always pop up in a subsequent generation.

Pure RR PP may be difficult to get, but R_ PP should be much easier. That would let occasional pea combs pop up, but no single combs, so probably not a big problem as regards frostbite.

...wondering if Mama A actually has a cushion comb...

I'm pretty confident that she doesn't. Rose combs are much wider than single combs, with pea combs having an in-between width. Cushion and walnut combs get the extra width of a rose comb, and she does not seem to have that.

 

[Wildgrass]

Super helpful, thank you! I do plan on looking at Mari's comb some more, but I believe you and it's good to know that P is more incomplete dominant. That means I could definitely have single-combed chicks from her, then. And also she lays nice green eggs.

This is a lot to chew on, so I'm trying to work my way through locus by locus. I just finished a video on E locus which had some good information on chick coloring, which suggests that all of my babies are e+ since they were all chipmunk colored. And according to that source the E locus works with close to complete dominance...? So are all my babies e+/e+? If so, what causes the brown breast in my sussex female?

(I can't thank you two enough, by the way, this is something I really want to understand but it's been hard for me to learn without being pointed in the right direction multiple times)

 

[NatJ]

And according to that source the E locus works with close to complete dominance...?

Um, sort of yes, sort of no.
Extended Black (E) is pretty much completely dominant over all the others.
Birchen (E^R) is pretty much dominant over all but Extended Black.
The rest look more like incomplete dominants or maybe co-dominants in some cases.

And there's also the question of chick down vs. adult color, because the dominance may behave differently in the one case than the other (I'm not positive about that, because so many other genes also have effects, but I think it may be at least sort-of the case for some of them.)

So are all my babies e+/e+?

Yes, they may all be e+/e+, although I'm not positive about that.

If so, what causes the brown breast in my sussex female?

If you go to the chicken calculator that was linked by @labelo
https://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

The default genes are all the ones marked + (including e+/e+)
Change the hen to have Co/Co (Columbian) and look what happens to the breast color in the illustration.

To make the pictured hen actually look like a Speckled Sussex, add Mh/Mh (Mahogany) and mo/mo (mottling). But Co is probably the gene removing the salmon breast.

 

[Wildgrass]

Ahhh, thank you. I wouldn't have put together that the sussexes are Co/Co and I haven't gone looking around for the breed genotype(s) yet. So, Sussexes are e+/e+, Co/Co, Mh/Mh and mo/mo I believe...? And my legbar is wildtype for all of those loci?

 

[Finnie]

Can you post pictures of them at day old?

 

[Finnie]

Because imo, SS chicks look different than CL chicks, so I could make a stab at which ones were your pure SS chicks.

 

[NatJ]

Ahhh, thank you. I wouldn't have put together that the sussexes are Co/Co and I haven't gone looking around for the breed genotype(s) yet. So, Sussexes are e+/e+, Co/Co, Mh/Mh and mo/mo I believe...? And my legbar is wildtype for all of those loci?

Yes, those are the genes I would expect.

The Legbar should also have B/_ (Barring on the Z sex chromosome, plus a W sex chromosome that makes her female but doesn't have any color genes that I know of.)

Mottling tends to produce more white with each successive molt. Several colors of chicks can have multi-colored camouflage patterns when they are young and then show different colors as they grow up.
So at present, I think the chicks with some white wing feathers are the most likely ones to be the pure Speckled Sussex chicks, but I would wait and see before naming any chick "Child of Mutt" or making any other decisions that rely on knowing the breed or parentage.

 

[Wildgrass]

Ok, I didn't get great day-old pictures, I was trying to photograph wing feather growth and their face markings. So, not amazing full body pics. But I'll grab the best one I have of each chick!