Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis

[ChicKat]

Ok, here is my understanding of lavender and barring genes. Please correct me if I am wrong:

* lavender is a recessive gene. A bird need two doses of lav to actually appear lavender color. A bird is spit to lavender will not show visually. Lavender works to transfer black pigment to lavender color and dilute red color to a pale yellow color, that is where Isabel color come from. If without the pale yellow, it would be a lavender, not Isabel

* barring gene is sex-linked dominant gene. Before going into more details about sex-linked genes (bantam, silver, chocolate, barring), we should understand that a hen has 1 Z chromosome and 1 W chromosome whereas a rooster has 2 Z chromosomes. A hen determines the sex of the chicks as she can only pass either 1 Z along with all the sex-linked gene attached to the Z to her son or pass W to the chicks (a female). This means a hen can only pass the sexlinked gene to her son, not the daughter. Now we can easily understand how barring will work in terms of creat autosex chicks.

Any corrections are welcome

super good summary. Thank you.

Here is an example (pullet) of an Isabel Male X barred (Cream Legbar) female


you can see that her hackels and tail show no barring. BTW she has a small crest and lays a blue egg - she has one gene for each of those and a recessive lav

This pullet has the barring gene...Cream Legbar Male X Isable female is the parentage

Sorry for the bad photo -- but you can see that he tail has subtle barring and her neck hackes have 'breaks' in the black center stripe. Both these chickens have a recessive lavender, one barring gene and one cresting gene.
Both the above have lav. I have high-hopes for this pullet because when paired with a barred male even if it only has one barring gene will definitely pass barring to her sons and then if the single barred dad passes barring instead of his non-barring gene, it would be a double barred. Then just to get her to pass lavender.... (May wait until a lavender single barred male shows up - to have a better chance a lav, rather than pair her with a spilt male.
ETA - better picture of the split pullet that has the barring gene...sharper focus

 

[Kiki]

Im going to stat back at the beginning of this thread, with my pen and notebook.
This is so interesting to me!

 

[ChicKat]

Re-reading the first page of this -- here are some additions/corrections:

There is another lighter breed where someone developed Isabel - here's the thread - looks like it was started in 2013 and last post in the thread is
It was developed by James at Skyline Poultry
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/834283/isabel-welsummer 5/206 when someone was asking for availability - and then I posted where someone could get Isabel Leghorns -

The Red Duckwing BBR is probably mahogany gene Mh affecting the basic Wild type plumage -- so there is Silver, Gold and Red duckwing. Then add barring gene and there is Silver crele, gold crele and Red Crele. Most of the Games (as OEG) that are crele look Red Crele and some look single barred. -


For chicken calculator instructions where I said 'put your mouse on calculate crossing' , You realize that you need to click on that button to activate it.

 

[hhong3138]

super good summary. Thank you.

Here is an example (pullet) of an Isabel Male X barred (Cream Legbar) female


you can see that her hackels and tail show no barring. BTW she has a small crest and lays a blue egg - she has one gene for each of those and a recessive lav

This pullet has the barring gene...Cream Legbar Male X Isable female is the parentage

Sorry for the bad photo -- but you can see that he tail has subtle barring and her neck hackes have 'breaks' in the black center stripe. Both these chickens have a recessive lavender, one barring gene and one cresting gene.
Both the above have lav. I have high-hopes for this pullet because when paired with a barred male even if it only has one barring gene will definitely pass barring to her sons and then if the single barred dad passes barring instead of his non-barring gene, it would be a double barred. Then just to get her to pass lavender.... (May wait until a lavender single barred male shows up - to have a better chance a lav, rather than pair her with a spilt male.

Thanks!. Nothing better than a picture or two to give it a visual concept.

 

[hhong3138]

Just to share a thread I started this morning in case anyone is interested in chocolate silver laced orpington. I started the first step of making this color in 2015.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1155790/making-chocolate-silver-laced-orpington

 

[ChicKat]

The first day out side for the 2nd generation chicks:





For sure this one (above) is male


Any barring in that tail?


Any barrning in that tail? I hope -- look at the feather second from the top toward the end. Just noticed too how much the little guy's comb shows at top.


Male in center - lighter than the other two -- and I see no indications of barring. Hope they will all grow up to have the good-looking type of their parents and that they have left the cresting gene behind.

Candled the eggs under the broody - 5/5 have veins - one looks weaker than the others -- more faint/fragile - didn't have the presence of mind to mark it --
Happy March everyone.

 

[hhong3138]

I kind of seeing some barring on the top pullet (last picture), don't you?

 

[ChicKat]

I kind of seeing some barring on the top pullet (last picture), don't you?

Good eye! Yes they do look faintly barred right now. Seems like the Isabel side of the family has a pretty straight line of color development from the Isabels here. Chicks are lavender and a light cream/straw color - then juveniles are pretty much solid lavender - and when they get to be adults, the reds - diluted to straw and peach and very light salmon show up.

The cream Legbar side of the family is more complex as they grow up. First the chipmunk look, then they become brown for the females with a lot of stippling and barred for the males - and it isn't until they are nearly adults that the males get their added colors.

Was looking at the split males tonight (pictures below) and noticing how they vary in the amount of red on their saddles, hackles and shoulders. Some have a very intense color and others a bit more subdued.

My thinking now is that the Mahogany gene in Cream Legbars and other of the red genes and enhancers were mistaken for the lack of a gold dilution (and we will never know because we don't have a genome map of the chickens ) -- There was a lot of discussion on the subject years ago. I'm super lucky that my flock of Cream Legbars does have Mahogany and probably some good melanizers too - so the LPID-B birds (lavender crele) will not look faded -- which some have said just looks like a dirty white when lavender gets too faded.

Among those three chicks - The boy in the second to last picture does look very light in his lavender. Bright sun will wash out the colors in photos and it is really hard to capture the exact colors.

Eventually - for the every-third-generation color refreshing by breeding back to 'brown leghorn' look - because I want to add barring, I will need to have a gold crele. A gold crele would look a lot like this picture:

The single barred grow-out male and the split barred female - he has color saturation.


The gold legbars from Australia


The artist rendition of gold crele.


Here are some examples of the 'red' showing up in the split males that are out there now:

1


2a


2b


3
The photo of 2 (a and b) shows the most intense brightest coloration (near the head and on the wings and saddle feathers) - and the three chicks in the previous post are his.
Cockerel 1 seems to be the lightest and cockerel 3 the darkest overall - however on 3 the barring on saddle feathers and hackle seems the most definite.

One interesting things is that the male only has 50% of the influence, and the female has the other 50%.....
There is a term 'Prepotent male' - and Grant Brereton wrote an article about it. A quick summary may be to say that male is homozygous (both pairs of genes match) for the desirable traits that he passes to his offspring. Here's a link to the article:
https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/success-breeding-chickens/
It's well worth the reading.

 

[ChicKat]

The best I can tell, this is what an ideal Cream Legbar would look like:

The artist is Diane Jacky - who is a brilliant artist of all kinds of chickens/pigeons and all breeds - with astounding accuracy based on what the Standard of Perfection tells you.
You can see compared to the Leghorn it is a stockier build, and has a sloped back. The tail angle is ideally 45o from horizontal. So that pair illustrated above is the body-type (Type) or confirmation you would want in your birds. Well and good. As an aside, here's the whole Cream Legbar Breed guide if you want to take a look - maybe someday one can be put together for our LPID-B - lavender creles -- what do you think?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GCI_f69Hd5P5w5m7GGUTCwH2Os6iWys9KqKHf2bJnk/edit

These illustrations (I will use the silver one this time) show the ideal body type for Leghorn:

The type is sleeker and more 'graceful' to my eye, and the tail although at a 45o angle as well, seems to come up from a curve and the back although slightly sloped is more flat. My spits are half CL and half Leghorn. The current generation is would be 3/4 leghorn based on Isabel Leghorn hens.....
Here's another thing I need to research and that is soft-feather versus hard-feather. Doesn't the leghorn have 'hard-feather'?

The legbar has 'come a long way baby' as they once said in the 70's. Here are pictures of the original pair of Cream Legbars that Punnett put in the 1947 dairy show in London:

The female looks a bit scroungy and her tail is, what can I say -- not very good. The crest must be very compact, because it is difficult to see in the picture. The male has a tail angle that is higher then 45o , and his tail shows white sickle feathers - both of which are considered undesirable by today's standards. His comb is very straight and the crest hardly visible.
Some years later - this photo emerged of an actual bird from the British SOP:

although perhaps this was a gold legbar - as I see no crest. Someway or other the birds seems more 'chesty' and more upright than the Leghorn.

One attraction to the legbar is the blue egg --

The egg on the left from a pullet who recently started laying (she is my split pictured above that doesn't have barring) - the right egg is a cream legbar. No, they aren't as blue as the photo shows. The intersting thing though is that the left egg is from a split, so only 1 blue egg gene is possible, and the right egg is from a pure CL so two blue egg genes are present.

This is how one would expect the behavior of dominant and recessives to act. The blue is dominant so the other egg gene in the pullet egg - is completely unknown -- her's has a blue equivalent to the egg on the right.

Photography is so tricky regarding colors that years ago we struggled to find a way for someone in a different location to understand the color you were seeing. Here's my latest take on the idea. I have an andriod phone. There is a free app called "Color detector" by Mobialia. You can get it in the app store. Here's the instruction:
Point your mobile, touch the screen and the app will shou the color info (HTML code, RGB and HSV values). It will also speak and show the nearest color name. At the right it shows the nearest color (up and the photo color (down). Press MENU for options.

Here's an example. I photo the right egg in this picture and it states "Seagull / Blue" and gives me
HTML information #80bacb, RGB information R:50% G:72% B79% and HSV H: 194o S: 37% V:80%

I will lilst some more links/tools to codify colors - but the HTML color is how the computer puts colors up on your screen. The amount of RGB is the light waves from the spectrum - and MOST of the time when I use 'Color Detector' on my eggs, the Green and Blue percentages are equal OR they are 1 % apart. When you touch the screen several times you will get several colors.

The actual - not through the computer colors of those eggs were this:

Submarine/Blue
HTML:#949d9c
R:58% G:61% B:61%
H: 173o S: 6% V: 62%

Onahau/Blue
HTML: #d7e2e4
R:84% G:88% B:89%
H: 189o S: 6% V: 89%

Casper /Blue
HTML: #afbdc0
R:68% G:74% B:75%
H:191o S: 9% V: 75%

Now that is all jibberish, I realize -- but bear with me. On your screen you could bring this up:

http://www.color-hex.com/
Then if you typed in the HTML code your screen would show the saturated color that the egg actually IS --
Then the HSV line -- would help you realize that the Saturation for example of that pure color is around 6%, It would be neat if you could type in the information into a phone app and that way get the exact color back on the phone screen.... hmmm maybe I will contact the developer. When you look at some of the sample colors, you will see the actual egg colors toward the lighter end of the spectrum not the saturated end. Oh sometimes my colors will come up "Paraglacial Blue / Green" or even grays -- but as I said, shoot a couple of times - because the surroundings affect what wavelengths you phone picks up - the light source - it's pretty complex

Okay - There is so much on color and the brain's perception of it. I suspect down the road - we will want to be able to compare our lavenders, salmons, straws etc. and see exactly what we have

Here are some more color tools.

http://colorizer.org/
http://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/colortheory/web/hsv.html
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/color/hex-to-rgb.htm

One day when I have time, I will catch and list the colors of the roos..... Today I need to find a way to kick those 3 who were hatched the end of January out of the brooder, because that other incubator has pips. And... the older ones are at the age where they mess up the water about every 15 minutes... I need to MacGyver some solutions --

 

[Kiki]

More babies! Yes!

This color app sound very neat. I will be getting it today.