Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis

[ChicKat]

All the chicken genes with no variation are the ones in 'wild type'. When you go to Henk's chicken calculator the default chicken examples are Wild type. It is very easy to change a wild type to an Isabel by putting the recessive lower case lav/lav genetic code in, and then the image will reflect the influence of a chicken with two recessive lavender genes.

Henk did a great job showing this basic chicken - you can see his wing-bar for the duck wing and you can see his wing triangle. Here is what happens when two recessive lavender genes are added:

You will notice the neck and saddle hackles have turned a straw or cream color, the wing bar has been diluted, the wing triangle has gone from the gold in the basic wild-type to a straw or cream color, and last the shoulder has gone from a bright chestnut red to a more salmon color.
Now, I will add the barring gene to the diagram:

You can see the result of the barring effect lightens the tail and puts pattern on the wing bar and the wing triangle as well as on the breast.

Here is the same exercise on a female:

The wild type female as seen in the normal 'brown leghorn'

The wild type with the addition of two recessive lavender genes - Notice the straw coloration on the neck hackles and the slight color dilution of the breast salmon and the more diluted tail and back. under feathers.

Once the barring factor is added the hen becomes even more pastel and the barring pattern is visible. --

The originals are called "Black Patterned Gold Duckwing" -

Next post I will show the images from the chicken calculator of the Cream Legbar.

 

[ChicKat]

When I work out the Cream Legbar on the chicken calculator, the symbol image is very similar to the one for my target bird - That makes sense because the thing that makes a cream legbar different from a "gold crele" - (remember the gold crele from the earlier picture when wing-triangle was discussed) - or to use the non-hobby name that the calculator generates:
"Black Patterned lemon/cream duckwing barred DF" is that the gold is diluted with the 'ig' gene - which by the way is recessive just like the lavender diluting gene.

Okay - start, as always with wild type

Now add the dual barring -- that is what DF stands for in the chicken calculator -- "Double Factor" - sometimes I refer to it as 'dual factor' -- oops.

Notice that the overall look is lightened by the barring - HOWEVER the duckwing pattern is still discernable.
Last step dilute the gold to achieve the cream color. It's recessive 'ig' gene - referenced as 'inhibitor of gold' only works on the red plumage:

Indicative of the duckwing is the red shoulder and the wing bar that is above the wing triangle. In real life the difference between the chicken I'm working on in my project and the Cream Legbar is the fact that the lavender gene dilutes BOTH the black and red pigments creating lavender and straw - while the cream gene only dilutes the red. Hence the Cream Legbar will have black plumage.
And for the female Cream legbar:
Here is the starting point - 'wild type' (aka 'duckwing', aka in Europe 'partridge')

Now add the barring gene to this hen that has the same appearance as a brown leghorn

and you produce what I'm going to call 'gold crele' - but more correctly as it appears on the chicken calculator: 'black patterned gold duckwing barred'
And finally the cream gene (ig/ig) added produces:

It's subtle, but the neck hackles are lighter in the last image. also a slight differentation is that the Cream Legbar female doesn't show barring on the salmon breast.

Previously I've written TONS on the Cream Legbar plumage...really tons!

Here is a link:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ection-for-alternative-legbars-sop-discussion - a 95 page discussion of Cream Legbar coloration

Interesting too to compare the symbol image of the female Cream Legbar to the symbol image of the bird I'm aiming for

Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred -- When you consider that the chicken calculator is taking genes and changing the image dynamically it is astounding what excellent information the images on the chicken calculator provide -- based on just manipulating the letters in the drop-down boxes for the genetics.

Of course if the barring is removed from the above -- you go back to plain Isabel.

And here is the real--life example of Isabel:
The photo from the PDF link in post 2 of this thread.

 

[nicalandia]

Are you by any chance Grant Brereton?

https://sites.google.com/site/cream...uckoo-or-in-other-words-lavender-brown-barred

 

[ChicKat]

Are you by any chance Grant Brereton?

https://sites.google.com/site/cream...uckoo-or-in-other-words-lavender-brown-barred

No Marvin,
I'm in the USA.

That link references Grant's article about lavender.
For my part, Grant, Henk and Sigrid -- from the help they have given me and the books they have written are the shining stars of the chicken genetics world to me. In 2014, I was able to attend a seminar that Grant put on in the USA in conjunction with the Sustainable Poultry Network in Morgantown NC.

I've only been involved with chicken genetics a few years -- and going step-by-step. My chicken genetics knowledge is far less that yours -- and doesn't even hold a candle to Grant, Henk and Sigrid. (but I do have Grant's and Sigrid's books along with some others like David Scrivener's. )

 

[ChicKat]

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

in genetics the E-locus is very important to plumage pattern. In Sigrid Van Dort's book 'Genetics of Chicken Colours The Basics', she compares chicken gentics to soup making and says that the e-allele are comparable to the broth of the soup. This is a genius analogy because the broth is subtle and underlying everything. Here's a quote: " There are 5 sorts of broth (e-alleles or the e-series} on which to make chicken colours. Wild type, Duckwing (e+) is one of them. " p.9

She goes on to say " The Gallus Bankiva (Red Jungle Fowl) is the basis on which we note colour genes. Every gene found in Red Jungle Fowl is denoted with a superscript +, and is known as 'wild type'.

Another factor in the book, is that the gold wild type (gold duckwing) and the silver duckwing have 'tells' on their chick down. If their lightest dorsal stripe is tan colored they are gold based duckwings (remember too in chicken plumage genetics everything is made of red, black and white - and gold and red are mostly interchangably used.) However, in a sliver duckwing the chicks will have very light , white looking dorsal stripes. That would lead me to ask - does a lavender have lavender dorsal stripes? I think not -- but take a look:


The chick on the left - no, more of a cream colored dorsal stripe -- the chick on the right -- maybe a little diffused lavender dorsal stripe.

Here is something so interesting about chicks, dorsal stripes and chick down

You can see the visual that studies the appearance of chick down -- depending on the e-allele or as I call it the E-locus.
Here is the article by G. Victor Morejohn from UC Davis 1954.
http://www.genetics.org/content/genetics/40/4/519.full.pdf
Thank you Dr, Morejohn
Here is a memorium to him -- from Classroom in the Coop:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101797
And back to the down of the chicks in Dr. Morejohn's illustration and how it can help a person get the genetics that they want.

(If you go to the link you can print the full paper and get the illustration on 8 1/2 x 11 The print is sooo small that it is just about impossible to read it on the print out that I have in hand.

Chick 'A' is wild type with two' e+' in this gene pair. [Feel free if I'm using the wrong terminology, to post a correction - I'm not a geneticist] Some of the verbiage, 'gene', 'chromosome' etc is in this Youtube

. I think as a non-geneticist you will get the gist of what I'm trying to say, if you are a geneticist, you will know what I mean.

Wild type is what I wish to breed for my lavender crele. A chick gets one of the E-locus genes from each parent. So, I want each parent to send an e+ to the chick.

Chick 'B' is brown
Chick 'C' is 'speckled head
Chick 'D' is yellowish white

Now, the last two chicks are heterozygous on their E-Locus -- those lttle scallywags, they got a different gene from each parent and they aren't matching. Chick 'E' is heterozygous for speckled head (remember chick 'C' is homozygous) and chick 'F' homozygous for brown head. I think that the last two chicks are (eb,ey) and (eb,es) respectively - but my print is too small to be certain. However it doesn't matter at all, it is just an interesting deep-dive into chick down - and you can read the entire paper at the link and see for yourself. The important thing is the sample shown in chick 'A'. Wild type, e+.e+

Why is it important? -- for the best duckwing look - the best salmon on the female's breast and the best bar on the male's wing, Homozygous e+ will give the desired results.
For my flock of Legbars - I have a pretty high confidence level that they are all homozygous for e+ - Each of the hatchlings from the Isabel male over my Cream Legbar females was 100% autosexable.

From the generation that is in the brooder right now, there is some hetrozygosity going on. Take a look at this brown chick here:




You can see from the dark pattern on the head, that this chick probably isn't e+,e+. Compare with the lavender chick that photo bombed and stands in front of the brown one -- the very clean demarcation of the dorsal strupe going from the back of the comb and traveling above the eyes.

Talk about luck out -- there are 4 lavender and 5 browns in that brooder. None of the lavenders appear to be heterozygous on the E-locus. Add to that, two of these 9 are showing significant comb growth - and neither of them are lavender.

More about luck in the next posting that I put in this thread.

 

[Finnie]

I have been following this from the beginning, and I must say, I really appreciate the chicken genetics lessons you are so generously teaching. Because there are so many genes involved in chicken colors, it is kind of hard to get a good grasp of them. But the way you are tying in how your project relates to the wild type is really helping me to understand what wild type is, and how other mutations affect it. Thank you.

 

[ChicKat]

I have been following this from the beginning, and I must say, I really appreciate the chicken genetics lessons you are so generously teaching. Because there are so many genes involved in chicken colors, it is kind of hard to get a good grasp of them. But the way you are tying in how your project relates to the wild type is really helping me to understand what wild type is, and how other mutations affect it. Thank you.

You are very welcome!

Sometimes writing it out and putting matching pictures to the theories helps me understand it at the same time.

 

[The Moonshiner]

I'm following along also.
I thought about the same project before. Same cross anyways but I wanted to focus on a bird that was as close to the leghorn as I could get but lay blue eggs. Auto sexing isabelle color. My thoughts were maintaining the blue egg genes for the long run would be hard.
I put that project on the back burner so it will be nice to see how your project goes.

I did start a project with crossing isabelle leghorns, barred leghorns and welsummers. Producing a very leghorn type auto sexing isabelle brown egg layer. I dont mind if the eggs are brown or chocolate or in between.

Just another project. I love projects. Around here everyone is interested in "farm fresh eggs" and for some reason they think that means they have to be brown eggs.
My poor leghorns are not the most popular in my area.

In pure leghorn i'm working on crele and barred isabelle as well as quite a few other ideas. Should double our leghorn varieties by end of next year.

 

[ChicKat]

I'm following along also.
I thought about the same project before. Same cross anyways but I wanted to focus on a bird that was as close to the leghorn as I could get but lay blue eggs. Auto sexing isabelle color. My thoughts were maintaining the blue egg genes for the long run would be hard.
I put that project on the back burner so it will be nice to see how your project goes.

I did start a project with crossing isabelle leghorns, barred leghorns and welsummers. Producing a very leghorn type auto sexing isabelle brown egg layer. I dont mind if the eggs are brown or chocolate or in between.

Just another project. I love projects. Around here everyone is interested in "farm fresh eggs" and for some reason they think that means they have to be brown eggs.
My poor leghorns are not the most popular in my area.

In pure leghorn i'm working on crele and barred isabelle as well as quite a few other ideas. Should double our leghorn varieties by end of next year.

That is so amazing. wow. I would LOVE to see any pictures you have of the 'leghorn type autosexing Isabelle brown egg layer!! I bet it is a pretty bird. Also, wow, any pictures of autosexing chicks.

Remember that the blue-egg gene is dominant, so maybe if you didn't do a lot of line-breeding you would have blue eggs earlier than you think. In UK they were selling blue-eggs at a premium, I remember that the prices were mind-boggling.

http://www.clarencecourt.co.uk/our-range/cotswolds-legbar/
Marketing is everything, LOL - and I know that food in Europe and Asia is more expensive than it is here -- but I think it was something like $6 for 6 eggs a few years back. 'old Cotswald Blue Legbar eggs' ETA fancy packaging -- that probably costs a bit too, and stamping every egg with a little crown...why not?

Too bad you aren't closer - I will have some chickens to phase out VERY soon. I would love to find someone interested in them. The split rooster in the picture needs to move along, and the brooder babies - need to be booted out in a week - and meanwhile -- the one incubator says 4 days until hatch. --pressure-

My first crosses between Isabel and Legbar produced 6 chicks. 4 males and 2 females. The females needed to be rehomed, although they have 1 lavender gene, the appearance is brown leghorn. These chicks were from Isabel cockerel over Legbar hens -- so the mother passed her barring gene to the sons only. One day one of them was in the nesting box, and seemed a bit mopey at about 12-13 weeks old. I isolated her because the stress of maturation, is IMO a contributing factor to Merrick's disease. From what I understand it it more likely to attack a pullet, and it is often around 14 weeks. She hadn't left the coop in the morning that day, which is why I checked on her and put her in a pet carrier. Later I went to check on her and she had died. When I emptied out the wood shavings to my astonishment there was a little white pullet egg. I think that she was not mature enough internally to sustain egg laying and the egg killed her? I will never know. That egg was white. (It could be genetic, or it could be that her egg-laying mechanism was malfunctioning from the start because it should have been blue. I don't do a lot of line breeding in my Legbar flock, but I've never encountered a white egg from a legbar, although some Legbar owners have.

Then about two months later the other pullet from that hatch laid an egg (which just shows how premature the first pullet was in starting to lay). The second pullet lays a beautiful blue egg. Her eggs are still pretty small. When she reaches full size, I may hatch from her. Her father was more saturated than the other one's father, and her coloring is more 'rusty' or 'red' while the one who died was more brown or taupe.
Anyway - if you have pictures of your flock - and chick pictures, I would more than love to see them. I'm especially interested in how distinct and easy autosexing is for you with the chicks.
Next post, I will talk a little bit about lavender's on the chick down, and the luck factor I mentioned would be discussed.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Right now and till the end of summer probably all I'd have to show is black and barred from pretty much any of my projects that include barring.
The auto sexing has yet to come but im basically using the legbar recipe but using barred leghorns instead of barred rocks. I'm sure you know how theyre made and how it works so you'll understand what i'm doing.
They'll pretty much be crele and so i'm also adding lavender which will be the same as youre doing. Barred isabelle.
My barred leghorns are silver based so in the process i should also end up with some of my other project ideas. Crele, barred isabelle, barred silver, lavender silver, barred lavender silver, lavender and barred lavender.

Just started on the brown egg project. Just using isabelle leghorns on welsummers and adding in barring. They should end up pretty much the same color as my leghorn project and your project.

I'll share pics when i get something to show. Wish I was further along but sure you feel the same way.