Robinson (I call him Jim) has a much shorter back, yes?
Camp...so you have the new babies daddy!
How cute!
Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis
- Thread starter ChicKat
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Camp...so you have the new babies daddy!
How cute!
Robinson (I call him Jim) has a much shorter back, yes?
Camp...so you have the new babies daddy!
How cute!
I had no idea! I feel so honored!
e- Thread starter
- #174
On color --
There's been a lot of time to muse about the coloration and the cause and effect.
One big thing is that there will need to be - for my project - a Gold Crele to cross into the Lavender Crele from time-to-time so that the lavender, peach, straw, and salmon don't just fade into oblivion as I understand the behavior of lavender and as Moonshiner's Poultry has stated, and as the earlier reference to the lavender Crele Orpingtons has stated. So now the quest requires two birds that don't exist to my knowledge. 1. the LPID-B2 (Lavender Patterned Isabel Duckwing - barred double factor) and 2. a BPGD-B2 (Black Patterned Gold Duckwing- barred double factor) and I want it to be split for lavender.
That bird would look like this:
My single barred guys are pretty close -- they lack that bright orange/gold in the hackles and saddles and they have stronger dark barring on the hackles and saddles and weaker - messier* tail and breast barring.
The genetics are here -- and in the fall breeding season I could get one -- it makes more sense to keep a male - because he has double factor barring and would give each chick barring. Chances of getting one from split female x Isabel single barred male are 1/32 according to the chicken calculator.. However those chicks could be split for cream as well - which would be undesirable to provide the needed color refresh that would be the objective.
In theory a chicken like Dave at Home's (down in Australia) Gold legbar could fill the bill - here's a picture of his gold:
Here is a picture of the splits that I have here - that show a lot of color:
These two were hatched from Cream Legbar male x Isabel female, therefore she has the one barring gene that she is able to have and he has one barring gene, but needs another, and needs to ditch his little single gene crest to be a gold Legbar (and ditch is recessive gold inhibitor and I suppose to be a gold Legbar ditch his recessive lavender dilution gene -- but that's not what I wish to have - reason being I want to stay close to the LPID-B2. One of the offspring of either of these two when paired with a barred lavender could produce that 1/32 that I would need. (there could be unwanted hitch-hikers - a cresting gene could be passed along and a cream gene could be passed along)
How to get the barring to 'fly in formation' like that really orderly barring on the artist rendition of gold crele Leghorn, I don't know. Looks a bit like Dave in Australia's gold Legbars are starting for that. Referring to silver and to the neat pattern of barring on crele -- there is an example of a real chicken that shows it - so it is possible to attain:
To me, amazingly close match to the artist rendition - as far as the barring pattern.
Now, we also know that different breeds manifest barring in different ways.... but the above leghorn really has a nice barring pattern. Do you wonder if they breeder spends a lifetime achieving this? Just like working on type can go on for a lifetime?
After all these years, I also have a working hypothesis that the controversy years ago about if a Cream Legbar was cream or not -- really wasn't looking at cream per se, but people were seeing the results of Mahogany and melanin.
Here's a blurb from Wikipedia:
"Melanotic Ml mutation[edit]
A second black or nearly all black adult phenotype but with little eumelanin in the shanks and beak, has been described. This mutation, unlike E has no influence on down coloration. But is responsible for the extension of black pigment into the normally red areas of red-zone fowl interacting with the other alleles at the E locus. This autosomic mutation is Ml (melanotic) and its expression varies however with the E allele present.[11]
In other words, Ml interacts with the recessive alleles of the E allelic series which normally produce non-solid black plumage, "extending" black to zones which otherwise would be of some other color. This gene has little or none effect on the chick down color nor extends black to the shanks.
Ml was incorporated by selection during the fixation of the black color of some breeds to reinforce the processes leading to completely black plumage. Its presence has been confirmed in Black Minorca, Laced Cochin, Laced Wyandotte and in White Crested Black Polish (chicken),[8] although the latter has not a solid black plumage, but a white crest instead. Presence of Ml was also confirmed in Castilian Black[12] and in Double-Laced Barnevelder where only the females show double-laced pattern whereas males are melanized black-breasted reds.[13]
Homozygotes Ml/Ml[edit]
Homozygotes Ml/Ml are nearly all black especially in combination with some recessive alleles of the E allelic series such as eb (brown) and e+ (wild type), except that females with e+ are black with salmon breasts, while females with eWh are wheaten with dark brown back and hackle. Males are nearly all black.
Heterozygotes Ml/ml+[edit]
Melanotic Ml in single dose has little or no effect on plumage color in combination with eWh in females. Heterozygotes Ml/ml+ have black head and hackle in combination with eb and e+ but little effect on eWh females. It is difficult to distinguish the heterozygous males from the wild type but the black head and hackle of the heterozygous females is quite obvious. Melanotic is considered incompletely dominant because heterozygotes are unlike either homozygote.[11][12] "
Cream Legbar females have multiple crest colors. The 'standard' calls for barred feathers. Here is the look that I most prefer:
Dark crest above and on the right, lighter crest on the left -- the same with the neck hackles in the bottom picture. This would seem to me an expression of that Ml gene.
And the mahogany genetics.... AS Brian Reeder has written - I postulate that some of the back and saddle 'red' in Cream Legbar males is due to Mahogany not a lack of cream-diluters.
The above Cream Legbar male, showing very little Mahogany - but retaining his red shoulder.
The above male showing mahogany in his saddle feathers.
The bottom line is this -- before the effects of lavender are applied, the underlying colors should, in theory be as saturated as possible. The blackest blacks, the reddest reds.
There's been a lot of time to muse about the coloration and the cause and effect.
One big thing is that there will need to be - for my project - a Gold Crele to cross into the Lavender Crele from time-to-time so that the lavender, peach, straw, and salmon don't just fade into oblivion as I understand the behavior of lavender and as Moonshiner's Poultry has stated, and as the earlier reference to the lavender Crele Orpingtons has stated. So now the quest requires two birds that don't exist to my knowledge. 1. the LPID-B2 (Lavender Patterned Isabel Duckwing - barred double factor) and 2. a BPGD-B2 (Black Patterned Gold Duckwing- barred double factor) and I want it to be split for lavender.
That bird would look like this:
My single barred guys are pretty close -- they lack that bright orange/gold in the hackles and saddles and they have stronger dark barring on the hackles and saddles and weaker - messier* tail and breast barring.
The genetics are here -- and in the fall breeding season I could get one -- it makes more sense to keep a male - because he has double factor barring and would give each chick barring. Chances of getting one from split female x Isabel single barred male are 1/32 according to the chicken calculator.. However those chicks could be split for cream as well - which would be undesirable to provide the needed color refresh that would be the objective.
In theory a chicken like Dave at Home's (down in Australia) Gold legbar could fill the bill - here's a picture of his gold:
Here is a picture of the splits that I have here - that show a lot of color:
These two were hatched from Cream Legbar male x Isabel female, therefore she has the one barring gene that she is able to have and he has one barring gene, but needs another, and needs to ditch his little single gene crest to be a gold Legbar (and ditch is recessive gold inhibitor and I suppose to be a gold Legbar ditch his recessive lavender dilution gene -- but that's not what I wish to have - reason being I want to stay close to the LPID-B2. One of the offspring of either of these two when paired with a barred lavender could produce that 1/32 that I would need. (there could be unwanted hitch-hikers - a cresting gene could be passed along and a cream gene could be passed along)
How to get the barring to 'fly in formation' like that really orderly barring on the artist rendition of gold crele Leghorn, I don't know. Looks a bit like Dave in Australia's gold Legbars are starting for that. Referring to silver and to the neat pattern of barring on crele -- there is an example of a real chicken that shows it - so it is possible to attain:
To me, amazingly close match to the artist rendition - as far as the barring pattern.
Now, we also know that different breeds manifest barring in different ways.... but the above leghorn really has a nice barring pattern. Do you wonder if they breeder spends a lifetime achieving this? Just like working on type can go on for a lifetime?
After all these years, I also have a working hypothesis that the controversy years ago about if a Cream Legbar was cream or not -- really wasn't looking at cream per se, but people were seeing the results of Mahogany and melanin.
Here's a blurb from Wikipedia:
"Melanotic Ml mutation[edit]
Barnevelder cock exhibiting a nearly black plumage associated with melanotic Ml mutation in homozygosity.In other words, Ml interacts with the recessive alleles of the E allelic series which normally produce non-solid black plumage, "extending" black to zones which otherwise would be of some other color. This gene has little or none effect on the chick down color nor extends black to the shanks.
Ml was incorporated by selection during the fixation of the black color of some breeds to reinforce the processes leading to completely black plumage. Its presence has been confirmed in Black Minorca, Laced Cochin, Laced Wyandotte and in White Crested Black Polish (chicken),[8] although the latter has not a solid black plumage, but a white crest instead. Presence of Ml was also confirmed in Castilian Black[12] and in Double-Laced Barnevelder where only the females show double-laced pattern whereas males are melanized black-breasted reds.[13]
Homozygotes Ml/Ml[edit]
Homozygotes Ml/Ml are nearly all black especially in combination with some recessive alleles of the E allelic series such as eb (brown) and e+ (wild type), except that females with e+ are black with salmon breasts, while females with eWh are wheaten with dark brown back and hackle. Males are nearly all black.
Heterozygotes Ml/ml+[edit]
Melanotic Ml in single dose has little or no effect on plumage color in combination with eWh in females. Heterozygotes Ml/ml+ have black head and hackle in combination with eb and e+ but little effect on eWh females. It is difficult to distinguish the heterozygous males from the wild type but the black head and hackle of the heterozygous females is quite obvious. Melanotic is considered incompletely dominant because heterozygotes are unlike either homozygote.[11][12] "
Cream Legbar females have multiple crest colors. The 'standard' calls for barred feathers. Here is the look that I most prefer:
Dark crest above and on the right, lighter crest on the left -- the same with the neck hackles in the bottom picture. This would seem to me an expression of that Ml gene.
And the mahogany genetics.... AS Brian Reeder has written - I postulate that some of the back and saddle 'red' in Cream Legbar males is due to Mahogany not a lack of cream-diluters.
The above Cream Legbar male, showing very little Mahogany - but retaining his red shoulder.
The above male showing mahogany in his saddle feathers.
The bottom line is this -- before the effects of lavender are applied, the underlying colors should, in theory be as saturated as possible. The blackest blacks, the reddest reds.
- Thread starter
- #175
It's a bit hard to tell from pictures, I think maybe a bit shorter -- but pretty close to the same -- Jack is 'beefier' that Jim by a bit. Good eye.Robinson (I call him Jim) has a much shorter back, yes?
- Thread starter
- #176
They are cute
Wait until I post some picts of these little hooligans tomorrow.I had no idea! I feel so honored!
Yes with this many -- I think I will do one more big hatch from different fathers to have some more genetics mixed in -- and it will be time then to call an end to spring breeding season and move to the next stage. you are right!Yeah! Now you will have enough birds to move on to next stage.
- Thread starter
- #177
Okay, chick picts.
I'm awash in chicks -- and only about 1/2 way through -- I hope more eggs hatch there are pips in there and now the doubt sets in -- is the humidity high enough? Is it too high? etc. One egg was stuck to the mat. When I lifted It I saw that the chick had started, then I think another chick knocked the egg over so his pip/zip was facing down and I think that chick drowned. So how often to take them out before they rampage on all the eggs knocking them around and how often to not mess with the incubator......
that really light-colored chick on the left is a tank. Will have to get the egg scale and weigh him to see how big he is. - I think it is a throw-back to the Orpingtons that Mr. Henry used when he first started making the Isabels.
they seem to be growing bigger with every minute -- kind of scary -- I guess the fluff just keeps fluffing and fluffing.
I'm awash in chicks -- and only about 1/2 way through -- I hope more eggs hatch there are pips in there and now the doubt sets in -- is the humidity high enough? Is it too high? etc. One egg was stuck to the mat. When I lifted It I saw that the chick had started, then I think another chick knocked the egg over so his pip/zip was facing down and I think that chick drowned. So how often to take them out before they rampage on all the eggs knocking them around and how often to not mess with the incubator......
that really light-colored chick on the left is a tank. Will have to get the egg scale and weigh him to see how big he is. - I think it is a throw-back to the Orpingtons that Mr. Henry used when he first started making the Isabels.
they seem to be growing bigger with every minute -- kind of scary -- I guess the fluff just keeps fluffing and fluffing.
Here comes one of my "bright" questions:
Can you tell which are boys/girls?
Mr. Tank is a boy?
Can you tell which are boys/girls?
Mr. Tank is a boy?
Piggy-backing this, would boys have only one copy of the barring gene, and the girls have none? So males would feast her barred and females would not?
- Thread starter
- #180
Good question. This generation isn't autosexing. -- The first gen I did there were 6 chicks that hatched and I got the sexes of them 100% correct. The other ones that have hatched from this cross of a split male and an Isabel female, I guessed right on one chick for female, but the males, I couldn't tell until the comb grew larger. (That applies to the 6 Isabel color I kept -- all the 14 splits have gone to other homes, I think that there were at least two males in the first hatch batch based on combs by the time that they left, and I think one male based on comb size in the second seven, however, both parties said they were fine with male chicks. (some people aren't allowed or don't want males).
The barring gene tends to lighten the down a bit in some cases and diffuse the chipmunk stripes. So this one big chick has lighter down and highly diffused stripes - and big feet...so I'm guessing on day 1 that it is a male -- but it is a guess at this point.
Here's the first generation:
This is actually a baby picture of Sharon's Jim on the right - Jack walking out of the picture at the bottom and their sister at the top left. Interesting I hadn't realized how much Darker Jack was as a baby. The female has bright white dorsal stripes on each side of her dark brown/black center stripe. Her dorsal stripe starts by her little tiny comb in a 'V' and travels uninterrupted to her butt. There are dark stripes on each side of her lighter chipmunk stripes. They boy's have dorsal light stripes and they are more diffused - less sharp and JIm has a break in the continuous dark stripe right at the back of his head. Either I lucky guessed, OR - working with Cream Legbars for 5-years -- I kind of know my lines 'tells' for sexing. If they were truly autosexable - (two barring genes in these boys instead of just one) - then they would have a light splotch at the top of their head. The female in the picture has no barring because the father of these three was Isabel roo and the mothers were Cream Legbar.
That's a tricky one -- because the mothers had zero barring (Isabel). The father (your split guy) has 1 barring gene...but two place holders so he has one non-barring gene. Females have one place holder and they get their 1 barring gene from their male parent. Hmmm -- He could pass along his 1 barring gene or his non-barring gene. Same thing to the sons. They have two place holders and plain Isabel mom doesn't pass along any barring. Split papa can either pass along his one barring gene or his non-barring gene...which is why Punnett's square is so good.
The Punnett square for the barring trait is:
from this site:
http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page1.html
So the green squares show a capital B for the barring gene and lower case for non-barring -- but you see in the second row, instead of a pair of genes there is only one -- because female chickens only have one place holder for barring. Female could get barring or non-barring from their father. Males can get barring or non-barring from their father -- and definitely non-barring from thier Isabel mother --
That means that female chicks could get both lavender from mother and father and barring from father -- and be the end product. Isabel plus barring. (some female chicks will not get their father's barring gene, they will get the non-barring gene)
It will take another generation of pairing selecting a barred female with a single barred male - both homozygous (having two copies) for lavender....and that double barred male will be the end product.
So all the single barred females and any single barred males are what I'm aiming for this time around.
Then I doctored that Punnett square to show what would happen with a single barred male and a barred female.
25% of the offspring will theoretically be double barred males, 25% single barred males, 25% barred females and 25% non-barred females. whew!
I think that two of the oldest hatchlings January 31 - are barred - a male and a female:
If you look at the neck feathers - it appears that the coloration is interrupted - barring? He's alarmingly light-colored, and this is just single barring.... but he has a lot of growing to do - and with CL males it seems that they change colors a lot as they grow out -- so maybe he will get some good color as he ages.
If you monitor can show it -- the chicken on the left has subtle stripes in the large tail feather - she also has faint barring on the top of her head.
ETA - sad that they aren't my brooder babies anylonger and I can't just go pick them up -- they live outside now...
and of course that simplified Punnett Square is great regarding just barring -- Here is the one generated by the chicken calculator for that pairing:
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