LGD fear aggression and me

[carolinagirl58]

Quote:
So, if you're gone so much, why do you have 2 puppies you're trying to train? I agree with others who said they think you should re-home one of the puppies. I've never raised 2 puppies at one time, but even if they were housedogs, it seems like it would be a lot of work.

I've also never had a problem getting my dogs to bond with me, but our one outside dog----which I would consider a LGD (GSD), we got when she was already 5, and she is very bonded to me. I hope everything works out w/o any disasters happening.

I think a big part of the problem is that she didn't realize she would have to train them. These are her first experience with LGDs. I suspect her breeder just wanted to sell pups so he told her that two would be much better than one, and that all you had to do was stick the pups in with the goats and you'd magically have a fully able livestock guardian animal. It's really a shame this happened. Training one LGD is hard enough, training two at the same time? I can't even begin to imagine how much work that would be.

 

[eljen]

I'm starting to feel like posting here was a bad idea. I feel like many posters have the wrong impression of me. Carolinagirl, you are right, the so called breeder pushed me into getting two dogs, and I was stupid for taking both. I will take into account everyone's opinions that two puppies are a bad idea, but as I said in my initial post, I knew it was not a good idea going into it and I am trying to make it work. But I didn't just take them out to the pasture and ditch them there. I am trying not to take the misguided criticism personally. I am taking this all very seriously, I have done lots of research, read books, gone to seminars, and had already explored many of the websites that have been posted. I spend time with the dogs regularly, they have been doing very well. I have had the goats penned with the dogs for weeks, took the goats and puppies on walks, practiced leash training, sit and come commands, boundary training, touching the puppies all over their bodies, introducing them to horses, cows, cats. I feel strongly that I am being misjudged here and I sincerely thought I was doing everything I could to bond with the dogs. The biting incident was an isolated incident and I was just looking for advice on the subject.

 

[carolinagirl58]

Don't feel like posting here was a mistake. None of us know you or know the exact situation so it easy to jump to conclusions. I apologize if I have done that. You did state that you had only 2 hours a day to spend as a shepherd. So even if you spend that entire 2 hours with the dogs, they don't really need you....they have each other for the remaining 22 hours a day. They don't feel your absence when you are gone. Sort of sounds harsh, but in order for a dog to bond to you, he has to feel some desire or need to be with you and those dogs don't feel that. You are just someone who comes to see them once in a while and the rest of their time they have to bond with each other. I honestly see no way it will work with those two alone in that pasture with the goats for that many hours a day. Even if you do manage to get then through these puppy hood issues, there will be new issues when they begin to reach adulthood. They will compete for dominance and one of them will get hurt. I have known siblings and mother/daughter pairs of dogs fight to the death before. It's really VERY common among large powerful breeds. If you are determined to keep them both, then I'd separate them now and forever into separate pastures. Electric wire should keep them where they belong. It's really sad that this is happening because I know it's not what you intended when you got them both. One of the links I sent you was to Lucky Hits ranch. Maybe you could Email him and ask him what you should do. He has handled a lot of Anatolians that have gotten out of control by well-meaning but unprepared owners so he may have some good advise for how you should handle these two dogs. And I say unprepared because even though you were prepared for one, you were not prepared for two.

 

[17roses]

Please dont be offended. A biting dog is a "hot" topic. It charges people and they want to help fix the problem so much, that they come off as attacking you. I think most people have been guilty of this from time to time.
I am now going to give my 2 cents worth on this. I started my farm around 3 years ago and our property is surrounded by coyotes so a LGD was one of our first purchases. I spent many, many hours researching and talking to others with LGD and as soon as I thought I knew something, someone would tell me the opposite. I did decide on a Pyr since that is one of the few facts that seemed clear - they are easier to handle. About 50% of the people / websites said I needed to get 2 dogs so they could play with each other and not with the goats. Around 1/2 said training is necessary, others said hands off. The facts about feeding, vet care, housing etc... all said different things. I know several people who have LGDs and each person has a different set up and different belief system about how to make a great LGD. I know someone who has an Antolian that they only touch once a year, they have 100s of acres and it roams with the herd. It protects the goats and lives with them full time. It doesnt like or want people but once a year, she catches it, muzzles it, vet inspects it, shots are given, nails done and it is released. Some people would say that is wrong, I however believe, the dog is happy and since she gives it food and vet care I think it is a system that works for her and the dog. I think there a 100s if not 1000s of ways to raise a successful Livestock Guardian.

Here is what I did...

I purchased one male Pyr puppy from full time, live outdoor, working stock
I did a more hands off view, I have never treated him like a pet and though I would not call him bonded to me, he is happy to see people (shots, shaving, nails are never a problem)
When he was too rough with the goats, I didnt correct him. He has learned to be gentle and I found that he now only "plays" with our buck
He has a very heavy herding instict which worried me but he now uses it to round up the goats to protect them when danger is near
I understood and accepted the learning curve with a giant puppy - I knew that he may not work out as a LGD and a goat may get hurt in the process
I think the most important thing that I did was listen to myself - I gained all the advise people would give and then I made my own decision. And understood it may be wrong!

So my opinions about LGD's in general is this...

I dont believe in trying to bond with a LGD - I dont need or wish to have kisses, love or admiration from them. I have pet dogs for that. So I keep training and bonding to a minumum. Respect is earned in the eyes of a LGD, not forced. Mine respects me. I am boss just by how I carry myself. I have seen him bow to 6 year olds who carry themselves as boss and jump on adults that come in to the pasture with an air of submittion. I ask visitors to treat him like you would the buck goat - with respect. I love him but he goes in the catagory of livestock and if ever I decide to stop keeping goats, he will go with them. He would be unhappy as a pet.

I have seen 2 dogs work in tandum with such grace, gentleness and purpose that I know 2 can work (even 2 girls) but mostly a pair is recommended, girl boy with one or both fixed.

A lone dog will take on behaviors it learns from the goats and I think this is a sign of true bonding which is exactly what I hope for in a LGD (mine chews hay and head buts

)

Having a dog fixed early is a great way to lessen distractions and make it a great protector

No matter the kind of dog and type of training or lack of, NOT ALL DOGS ARE GOOD LGD. Some will fail to protect no matter what you do and other breeds that are not likely candidates will do the job.

Keeping a regular schedule helps the dog know what to do when.

Allowing the dog(s) to make it's own decisions is critical to a LGD. I wont be their to use the "training". It either will do the right thing or not, they are and should be very independant.

These are just my opinions - I hope you will take what you want from them and leave the rest. These are your dogs, your decisions and because every set-up, person, dog and livestock is different, I believe only you can decide what is right. I know what I would do but I am not you.

 

[spiritdance]

don't be afraid of getting "too bonded" to the pups ... the more bonded they are to you the more they will respect the "pack order" you establish, and that means taking care of the goats you value. As others have said, separate the two and make YOURSELF and your DH their main source of companionship and instruction. Spend plenty of time with them and the goats, showing them that the goats are important to you and therefore should be important to them. Then, once you have established a good bond of trust and leadership, you can begin working the two together when you are present. DO NOT put them back together 24/7 until they are older and have proven themselves to you. Yes, you bit off a bit much taking on two at once, but at least you are being responsible and trying to correct the situation. It will take a lot more of your time and energy to do so than raising one at a time would, but it can be done.

ETA: As for not bonding with a LGD, in my mind that is just too risky to the humans involved. These are large, powerful animals, and if they don't see you as alpha there is nothing to prevent them from trying to dominate you ... this can lead to unpredictable and dangerous aggression, especially if they ever perceive you as a threat to "their" livestock. Yes, good LGDs need to make independent decisions, but it is exactly this trait that inclines them to strive for an alpha position if they see it as "vacant," i.e. NOT filled by you! I respectfully disagree with the idea that bonding with them in any way reduces their usefulness as LGDs. You can and should use the "pack mentality" to establish not only a bond but a common "pack" goal ... protecting your livestock. In a wild state, canine packs work as a unit fulfilling the directives of the alpha to meet the needs of the pack. If that alpha shows weakness or violates trust, he is open to challenge. If he leads well and provides for the pack, he is respected. Domestic dogs share this with their wild counterparts. It's up to you to take the alpha position and lead well.

 

[eljen]

Quote:
Thanks 17roses, I panicked after she bit me and I think I just had a big loss in confidence about whether what I am doing is right or not. I just need to get myself under control and do what I think is right.

 

[chickenzoo]

I personally would just spend more time with the puppys by themselves and work on building their confidence with you. Just spend time playing and interacting. It may have been a startled reaction by her, you know your situation better than us.
I have 3 sibling GP's together with their parents, they are doing wonderful. I've taught them to come to me on call etc... spent lots of time with them.....

 

[Mzyla]

Don't be discouraged – you already doing a good deed by even seeking advice here….
You got lured into two parallel sexes.
Maybe….just maybe….you can trade your Female for a Male with someone?
Place an ad, ask around??

Some years ago, I pick one of my dogs – obviously the WRONG way – I must to sort of twist his leg/muscle. He was crying terribly and was biting in the air (not my face, but near by)
Maybe this is what happened? As simple as that!

 

[watchdogps]

You've been given some great advice, especially about separating and bonding with humans. I would absolutely agree that you SHOULD bond with them, it wont hurt them at all, it will make dealing with them a million times easier.
Do separate them from the goats when you are not directly supervising. This will have to happen for longer than a month. Most LGDs go through a regression of sorts when they are adolescents. Many that have been trustworthy for a few months hit a bratty teen time and can start playing with stock again, which can lead to kills. Go back to "no unsupervised stock time" at the first sign of playing with stock. If you have to use crates or dog pens, do that.

 

[kritter11]

We have had 16 LGD (if you count the litter of 12 pups we had in 2009), one of which we kept.

Our LGD love us, but we have never spent more than 15 min. a day 'bonding' w/ them.
10 yrs ago we were told "let them bond w/ the goats / not you" so that's pretty much what we've done. They come into the barn to eat 2x a day, and approach us in the pasture for a pat, then wander off and do their 'thing'.

Seriously, I don't believe you *must* spend hours w/ an LGD to 'make' a good one. Please don't feel beaten up...I think you're doing a lot of the right things, but I do think one has to go or they need permanently seperated.

Best of luck to you!