LGD pup - gate conflict UPDATE pg 6

[watchdogps]

How old was Turk when he was removed from his mother?

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
I think they were 10 weeks? I'll have to check his papers to be sure.

 

[watchdogps]

Quote:
I think they were 10 weeks? I'll have to check his papers to be sure.

And they were with mom that whole time? I'm asking bc pups away from mom early can have serious social issues. I need to go reread the situation, by husband was talking to me before but I wanted to get that question out there.

 

[watchdogps]

Ok, reread your description. First of all, please don't take this badly, but I think you need to change your attitude about dog behavior. I have seen in your past posts a lot of stuff about dominance, and its here too. Dogs are not trying to rule the world , and everytime they do something we see as unacceptable they are not trying to be dominant.
Growling is a form of communication. I would bet that some non judgemental observation would tell you a lot about this. Stop jumping in and "correcting" everything before you understand whast going on.
What I get is that it almost sounds like he is just trying to tell them to move. Some dogs are more vocal than others. If he were trying to "dominate" them, it would be happening in other situations, he would be doing other behaviors like mounting etc. Does his growling escalate? You said if you are out of sight it continues. How long? Is he blocking them from coming in oe going out or just growling when they. Are in his way?

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
I think they were 10 weeks? I'll have to check his papers to be sure.

And they were with mom that whole time? I'm asking bc pups away from mom early can have serious social issues. I need to go reread the situation, by husband was talking to me before but I wanted to get that question out there.

with the mom and their goats until I picked them up.
I didn't cover it on this thread, but on the previous thread I talked about the mom. mom loves her goats, is not socialilzed to people at all (tollerates her owners but keeps her distance, can't handle her), and after whelping spend most of her time back out with the goats. several trips a day to the puppies to feed them, then back out to the goats. from the time the puppies could get out of the box, however they were with the goats and the mom.
I think mama dog didn't socialize with the pups much.
papa dog is moderately socialized, prefers the goats to people, but not a problem to handle.

 

[watchdogps]

Quote:
And they were with mom that whole time? I'm asking bc pups away from mom early can have serious social issues. I need to go reread the situation, by husband was talking to me before but I wanted to get that question out there.

with the mom and their goats until I picked them up.
I didn't cover it on this thread, but on the previous thread I talked about the mom. mom loves her goats, is not socialilzed to people at all (tollerates her owners but keeps her distance, can't handle her), and after whelping spend most of her time back out with the goats. several trips a day to the puppies to feed them, then back out to the goats. from the time the puppies could get out of the box, however they were with the goats and the mom.
I think mama dog didn't socialize with the pups much.
papa dog is moderately socialized, prefers the goats to people, but not a problem to handle.

I recall that about mom now. I don't think that's a part of it really, then. Regardless of her interactions with people, she would have been teaching good behavior with goats.

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
hm. ok, let's see where we can go with that.

growling will lead to snapping at them if they get head to head in the doorway at the same time. mostly its growling and it's definitely about access to the door.

are they blocking the door? not exactly, they're equidistant on either side of the opening, both close to the opening, and the other dog wriggles in without incident. but they are standing at the door, looking out when he wants in. that's when he growls at them.

regarding the food guarding, he was putting the other dog on the ground, growling, bite/pinning. that is what I read as dominance, if I'm misreading that, please teach me what I'm looking at. he was snapping at the goats and put a goat kid on the ground over food as well. currently where we are with that is he'll occasionally growl or bark at the other dog or the goats, but mostly allows seka (the other LGD) to share kibbles peaceably. goats can be near his pen while he's eating - most of the time fine, occasionally he growls (this is true whether I'm in sight or not). he will eat the goat food sometimes, the goats vacate as soon as they see him coming. he's never been food agressive with me at all.

I have a couple of times heard him after Seka, Turk growling loud/agressive, her ki-yi-ing... this has been when I'm where I can't see them, so I don't know the exact circumstances. she does ki-yi pretty easy, so I'm don't thing there was any real harm done, and no blood, but he was definetly on her with her on the ground, when I stepped around the building. this was near the exit door between the outter run and the open area, so it may be an path access issue, or not, don't really know. that also looks like dominance to me, but if I'm misreading, please tell me what I'm missing.

and actually, I'm not jumping in and correcting everything, but I do come here for advice when I need more info. the dogs now stand sholder to shoulder with my mini-goats and I'm pretty sure outweigh them... I'm not much for running up a big goat vet bill before I try to head things off.

your advice and observations are appreciated, I do come here to learn.

 

[TrystInn]

Littermates are notorious for behavioral issues, especially when it comes to dominance. Feed them in separate areas, then remove the bowls until the next feeding time.

I'd recommend altering them, both. It should calm things down tremendously, especially given that you're already experiencing dominance-type behaviors.

 

[zzGypsy]

I missed answering a couple of your questions.

yes it has occasionally escalated to snapping. I haven't seen this doorway situation escalte more than snapping, but he has put both Seka and goats on the ground with a pin/bite over food in the past. so far, that seems to be about pinning, he's not broken any skin anywhere on either.

I have seen him grip a goat by the muzzle briefly, not hard, without growling, when they were both in the doorway (face to face) from the outter run to the outside area.

no he doesn't mount, but I'm not sure the goats would stand still for it anyway, two of them keep their distance from the dogs most of the time, the third ignores them if I'm around, but stays a moderate distance away from the dogs if I'm not. the goats are definitely not seeking dog company, or ignoring dog's presence.

if I come to the fence, both dogs will jump up on the fence. Turk will try to position himself between me and Seka. he will put his paws on her and try and push her down/out of the way at the fence as well. no growling here.

I did pull the young billies out of the pen because the dogs were too interested in playing with them... not aggressive, but prone to play and grab and chase. no damage done, but it definitely alarmed the billies. I have not corrected their investigative behavior, or their play bounce, but have corrected when they smacked a billy to the ground with a paw... corrected by saying "that's enough", calling them off, or taking them by the collar and leading them off.

re: out of sight - if I'm in the kennel aisle when the nose-to-nose at the flap door occurs, and turk sees me in the asile, no growling, he'll wait a little, then go around and come in the other run. that worked reliably without growling several times in a row. but when I left the kennel building, he resumed with the growl at the door.

growling at the doorway: how long does it continue? mmm. not really sure. maybe 10 or 15 seconds? one or two rounds of growling, then I think he goes in and the goats bolt out. sometimes the goats bolt first. I don't think he's going after them if they bolt first, but I'm not really sure as I'm where I can't see.

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
we've got him scheduled to be fixed first part of Dec. thinking we might leave her intact until we know how she turns out. if she's excellent, we may want the option to breed her sometime in the future. I figure it'll be at least a year and a half before we know if she's good enough to breed, although it's possible she'll tell us she's not sooner. I already know we don't need to propigate Turk's personality, so no problem making that decision.

currently feeding in separate pens, no access to dog food / dishes except in the feeding pens. they will sometimes eat the goat food out in the open area where we feed the goats.