LGD pup - gate conflict UPDATE pg 6

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:

if it doesn't iron out, he'll have to get another job

I've got reservations

he's definitely on probation

I think you're trying to overanalyze everything, and I also get the impression you don't really like the dog very much

He's a puppy trying to learn how to deal with the world, and he really hasn't done anything out of the ordinary for a livestock guard dog.

Just chill out a little, and let HIM work out his way of doing his job as long as he's not HURTING the goats, and odds are he will become a fine animal​

I agree with this for the most part. The more I read what he's doing the more I think he is just being a little too sensitive and that he'll get over it eventually. I hope. Seems to me that a lot of LGDs, and especially mixes, seem to be very sensitive and have oddly reactive behaviors as young dogs. I have read this more than a few times here and on other boards. His behavior is just something to keep an eye on, and he'll work it out on his own.​

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
he doesn't seem to an issue with tight spaces in general, he will nose open the flap door and come right through, even though the door has a moderately stiff spring and 'rides'on the dog as they go through. he'll crawl through the 10"x10" door on the kennel runs that are set up for little dogs. I'll watch his body language with the goats more closely, I don't think he's uncomforatble in general, but the goats don't hang with dogs as a rule, they tend to keep some distance. so that I need to look at. he tends to lean on my leg when being handled, makes eye contact, soft expression. no body handling issues, eyes, ears, mouth, paws, belly are all fine to handle with no resistance at all, very relaxed.

maybe I need to just sit and watch for a couple of hours. I'm not sure I understand all the details of what I"m looking at. I'll do that sometime this week and let y'all know what I see.

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:

if it doesn't iron out, he'll have to get another job

I've got reservations

he's definitely on probation

I think you're trying to overanalyze everything, and I also get the impression you don't really like the dog very much

He's a puppy trying to learn how to deal with the world, and he really hasn't done anything out of the ordinary for a livestock guard dog.

Just chill out a little, and let HIM work out his way of doing his job as long as he's not HURTING the goats, and odds are he will become a fine animal​

actually I like this dog a LOT. I have to watch my contact with him so I don't make him a pet since he's got a job to do, and I want him with the goats, not on the back porch waiting for me to come out.

overanalyze? that's possible. wouldn't be the first time...

especially when I'm in unknown territory. this is my first round with LGDs and I would have preferred seasoned adults, but haven't been able to find what I need, so puppies are the alternative. not so good for them, since they don't have an adult dog to learn with, or a seasoned LGD handler either. just trying to *not* make a mess of them, or let things go too far wrong while they grow up and learn. I'd hate to ruin a dog's "career" if I can get some guidance that keeps things on track.

but then, that's why I'm here, asking questions.

but I hear y'all telling me to chill out.

so far no damage to the goats, if you don't count anxiety... they're not calm about the dogs, they keep their distance.​

 

[Peaches Lee]

Well, this is just my opinion being on the outside looking in, I would personally rehome Turk, considering Seka is working out wonderfully, she is your LGD. I would be worried that harm would come to those goats considering how small they are and the size of him. I hope it works out for you and good luck.

 

[watchdogps]

Quote:
I think that would be a premature judgement. As Bear Foot noted, he isnt doing things that are that unusual, and they arent harmful. A LOT of LGDs do far worse things in their adolescence, even KILL an animal or two. It doesnt mean they wont figure things out and be great later.

He is only showing this behavior in this situation, so there's something about it that he isnt comfortable with. I think ZZs decision to sit back and observe for a while is sound. I know that as a trainer, I took a break from trying to DO anything with dogs for a while, and I just watched. Probably for six months, I didnt try to train anything, or "fix " any behaviors, I just observed what was going on. If anything got serious, I would intervene, and I practiced some management to keep things from occurring, but for the most part i just let me dogs live and do thngs as they did. I dont mean they got up on the tables and ate my food, they had manners, but I stopped micromanaging.
know what? I learned a LOT, and my dogs were BETTER behaved. I also learned to accept that dogs are dogs, not little furry minions to do our bidding. I thought I was a dog person before, but after that, I felt far more in sync with them, and it reflected in our relationship.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

seem to be very sensitive and have oddly reactive behaviors as young dogs.

They are sensitive because they are so intelligent, and there is nothing "odd" about the behavior in a TRUE LGD breed

just trying to *not* make a mess of them, or let things go too far wrong while they grow up and learn. I'd hate to ruin a dog's "career" if I can get some guidance that keeps things on track.

If they have the instinct, anything you do will just slow them down, as long as they are not HURTING the animals.

LGD's are NOT like other dogs, and will never behave like other dogs

The only reason I mentioned you "not liking him" was you made so many remarks about getting rid of him.
Give him another year before you make any decisions
He's still a BABY. Just enjoy him

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
They are sensitive because they are so intelligent, and there is nothing "odd" about the behavior in a TRUE LGD breed

Unless you were talking about a human being, sensitivity or reactivity to normal surroundings has nothing to do with intelligence what-so-ever. NORMAL every day activity such as going in or out of a gate with other animals on the other side should not cause an issue. I am assuming the dog has been accustomed to gates since he was a fairly young dog, and from what the OP states goats are not new to him either. I'm not saying the dog is a wash, however, the sensitivity/reactivity was caused by something: temperament issue or an actual issue caused by a situation with the goats.

 

[Laingcroft]

Quote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm reading this as you have a herd of goats (more than 3?) plus 2 young LGD in a 6'x16' kennel run attached to a building of some kind i.e. barn, canine kennel. Is this the permanent situation or is this the setup you are using for training the dogs? Are the goats normally on pasture and the whole group will be moved there later? If not, I can't help but wonder why you even need an LGD much less two of them unless you have some kind of heavy bear/cougar/human predator load in your area?

I'm not trying to be snarky but it sounds like you have too many animals in too small a space competing for areas/space to call their own. If you don't give them more room, the troubles are going to increase as the size of the dogs increase.

Now onto the dogs - From what you describe, Seka is exhibiting all the desirable qualities of a FLOCK GUARDIAN. She yields to the goats but is not afraid of them and more important they are not afraid of her. The fact that the goats are butting Turk and RUNNING AWAY as soon as he gains the interior portion of the run is a huge red flag. While you aren't around he could be getting into more trouble. I suspect he is stressed and needs periodic time outs/quiet time away from the goats. It could also be that Turk is bonding more with Seka and/or you than with the goats.

Training is not necessary for an LGD. They have everything they need instinctively, our job is to curb bad behaviors and re-direct. Normal puppy behaviors include barking too much and at everything/anything, nibbling on ears/legs, play chase, running in the pasture, and generally being puppies. That's expected but it should be corrected and it can only be corrected if you are there. When you aren't there, they shouldn't be able to get into trouble. That's why an older, experienced dog is invaluable.

If your goats are normally on pasture, get them back out there and set up a safe pen/kennel in the pasture for the dogs so they can be with the herd but not in direct contact until you are there to supervise.

We actually allow our LGD to defend food bowls otherwise the sheep and goats will eat it and that's not good - ruminants shouldn't be eating kibble with lamb/chicken protein at all. Our Anatolian routinely allowed the goats to eat all her food before we started to separate her at meal time. The Maremma won't settle to eat unless he's with his sheep, but then he has to guard his bowl - sigh.

Now with all that out of the way I'd say you have to really pay attention and trust your gut. Every dog is an individual. When Turk growls, what is his posture? Is his head down, ears back, tail down? Or his he standing on his toes, head up, ears alert, tail up or wagging? If the first, he's probably unsure of himself and defensive - again, give him quiet time/away time. If the second it's more likely to be an aggressive position - he's telling them what to do. The fact that the growling is escalating to snapping at this age isn't a good sign for an LGD. Something in this situation is not working for him, or he simply doesn't have the instincts to do the job. You really need someone there on the ground with you if you're uncertain - internet responses can only be guesswork.

I don't agree with posters who have said it's expected for a dog to go so far as killing livestock as he matures. In my book that is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE behavior. I had one dog that was fine with the sheep for two years, raised here with an older guide dog, and ended up freaking out for reasons unknown during her third year, killing four lambs, attacking the ewes (tearing one's ear right off) and causing two stillbirths. And yes, she was spayed. That dog was put down. Her dam was great with four footed livestock but insisted on killing all chickens - she's now guarding cattle on a chicken-free farm. Personally, I would re-home Turk and keep Seka. As mentioned above, you probably only need one LGD anyway. And once Seka has matured, then if you need one, get a male pup that she can "train" for you.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

NORMAL every day activity such as going in or out of a gate with other animals on the other side should not cause an issue.

It's not "an issue" to the dog.
Its normal for him, and only an "issue" to the owner.

I figure he's just establishing the "pecking" order, and don't see any "issue" at all

Sometimes it's best to just observe and not speculate about every little thing
It's not hurting anything at all, and not worth worrying about​

 

[zzGypsy]

Hi Laingcroft,
no not exactly right on the arrangements.
2 kennel runs 6x16 outside, 6x6 inside, atttached to a 50x75' pasture.
3 adult mini-goats right now, yes I'm way over dogged at the moment.

we're midway through a move from CA to MO... that is, I'm in MO with the dogs and goats, and my hubby is in CA with the rest of the livestock. I've got a dozen large goats and a dozen very large sheep on their way from CA in december, and will more than tripple those numbers in the spring. we've got poultry that I'm working with getting the dogs used to as well - about 40 head (ducks, chickens, turkeys, geese, guineas) and we have 6 draft horses shipping in december as well. I have cats that the dogs will sniff through the fence without agression, but that needs to be developed. I may get a calf or two in the spring once we're past lambing season, so they'll have cow exposure, but that's not an immediate problem. they currently bark if the neighbor's cows get too close to the fence.

we will probably be running 2 pastures, and it seemed as easy to start two dogs as one. besides, it provides a puppy-play outlet other than the goats.

I'm working out fencing on several additional areas, but right now we've got the small area to work with. 2nd larger area available this weekend, and another in 2 weeks. we're on 40 acres, with a plan for 150 acres in the next year.

and we're right in the middle of 3 major coyote packs.

ok so I spent some time just watching the dog/goat interaction today, here's a more careful observation of what I'm seeing.

one of the three goats (rose) is anxious about the dogs, keeps a large distance. I'm suspicious she has some vision problems and is an older goat, so I'll probably remove her from the group. I've got a 3/4 grown billy I want to put in for breeding anyway, so I'll probably make that change tomorow.

one of the 3 goats (clover) is pretty at ease with the dogs, I watched Turk and her stand side by side for a while today she was paying no particular attention to him, just munching the hay pile. when he moved in where she was eating, she gave turk a small butt, no real effort in it. he turned his head to her, moved off a bit, I didn't see any particular agitation in either of them.

the 3rd goat (Lilly) keeps her distance a bit, but doesn't seem head-high anxious. she will either turn to face the dogs, or move off at a trot if they bounce up.

I can see the pups want to play chase, they aren't mauling on the goats at all, but only clover ignores them, the other two will go off and that invites chasing. I called them off successfully from outside the fence one time when it looked like they were too intense.

when the goats are at the feed bin, and I turn the pups out after feeding them, the bounce over to the goat feed and all 3 goats vacate. I have several extra pans of pellets out in the yard as well, I did see both clover and turk with their noses in one of those at the same time.

I watched the door interaction for several rounds today, just left it alone and watched. clover and lilly will stand facing the door on the inside, Turk then Seka behind him stand on the outside. they're equidistant off the door. Turk barks at the goats, but he's watching me as well. if the goats back off the door a bit, he'll stand in the door and bark. he is waging, can't tell about head-posture as the door forces him to stand head at shoulder level to see in. he will make his way in if the goats back up, but it's clear lilly and clover are guarding the door, they give mock butts in the door direction from time to time. both seka and turk will yield / flinch if the goats mock butt. turk will stand & stare for 30 seconds or so, then bark for 5-20 seconds, then back off away from the door. several times he went after seka a bit (growing) after backing off. from where I was observing I can't see the outside run, so I don't have any details on that.

I can close either the dogs or the goats into one of the runs and leave the other set access to the other run and the pasture. tonight I put the goats in one of the runs and left the dogs with the rest of the space, that'll give the goats a night off and I'll do some more observing tomorrow.