Livestock guardian dogs

[Hallock234]

A Great Pyrenees does not fold over. They are fearless and will fight to the death. Don't let their appearance or gentleness fool you.

I've no doubt they make great LGD's, but standing guard and warding off a few coyote and going toe-to-toe with a human aggressor are two very different things and require very different attributes. Most LGD's, with the exceptions of some the eastern and asian breeds, were bred specifically to be neutral or outright friendly with humans, but still be aggressive with animal predators. A Great Pyrenees has protective instincts, but most of them don't have the temperament to get in a protracted fight with a human trying to do them harm. The overwhelming majority of dogs are inclined to go into flight or avoidance mode when seriously confronted by a human; there are only a few breeds (and within those breeds very select working lines) that have been bred and trained over the years to confront and go into fight mode with a human rather than try to evade one.

 

[MrsBachbach]

I've no doubt they make great LGD's, but standing guard and warding off a few coyote and going toe-to-toe with a human aggressor are two very different things and require very different attributes. Most LGD's, with the exceptions of some the eastern and asian breeds, were bred specifically to be neutral or outright friendly with humans, but still be aggressive with animal predators. A Great Pyrenees has protective instincts, but most of them don't have the temperament to get in a protracted fight with a human trying to do them harm. The overwhelming majority of dogs are inclined to go into flight or avoidance mode when seriously confronted by a human; there are only a few breeds (and within those breeds very select working lines) that have been bred and trained over the years to confront and go into fight mode with a human rather than try to evade one.

Well if you have human predators, then by all means get that people aggressive dog and enjoy having your *** sued off. That's the norm these days, whether a person has business on your property or not. By the way, no dog is going to withstand a bullet, so the human element is kind of a non starter imo.

 

[Hallock234]

Well if you have human predators, then by all means get that people aggressive dog and enjoy having your *** sued off. That's the norm these days, whether a person has business on your property or not. By the way, no dog is going to withstand a bullet, so the human element is kind of a non starter imo.

1) There is a bit more nuance to that conversation on people-aggressive dogs. Just like with anything, there are good, well-trained protection dogs and there are poorly trained ones (or no training at all). Just because someone owns a dog that is inclined to protect against human threats, doesn't mean that going to get their #$% sued off, but I'll leave it at that since this is becoming very off topic.

2) In most states, someone trespassing on your property with criminal intent has very little recourse if they get bit by a dog defending its property or owner. Again this is very nuanced conversation; that principle doesn't obviously apply to someone delivering a pizza or benignly wandering onto your property, and different states have different laws on that issue, so I'll leave it at that.

3) I'm not advocating that people use protection or herding breeds in lieu of LGD's to guard livestock. I think LGD's have much better temperaments and instincts for protecting livestock, mostly because they have a strong desire to take possession of and guard a flock, and their lowered prey drive is better suited for that work. However, this notion held by one poster that dobermans, and similar breeds, don't have enough "stopping power" (I never really understood what that term meant) to deal with coyotes is just baloney. Coyote are opportunistic predators, and they're not looking for a bloody fight. A half decent doberman, or a similar protection/working breed, is more than capable of holding its own against a coyote or two....that was the point I was trying to make.

 

[CASDOG1]

Dobermans were originally developed to deal with people, not predators. Human beings are delicate and dainty things. It doesn't take much to take one of us out.

 

[Birdydeb]

I've no doubt they make great LGD's, but standing guard and warding off a few coyote and going toe-to-toe with a human aggressor are two very different things and require very different attributes.  Most LGD's, with the exceptions of some the eastern and asian breeds, were bred specifically to be neutral or outright friendly with humans, but still be aggressive with animal predators.  A Great Pyrenees has protective instincts, but most of them don't have the temperament to get in a protracted fight with a human trying to do them harm.  The overwhelming majority of dogs are inclined to go into flight or avoidance mode when seriously confronted by a human; there are only a few breeds (and within those breeds very select working lines) that have been bred and trained over the years to confront and go into fight mode with a human rather than try to evade one.

Sorry as the owner of 2 Great Pyrenees I have to agree with CASDOG1 and MrsBacbach. As said their size and all that hair, especially around the neck is so they can fight off multiple predators and they do not fold. They. Do. Not. Fold. Against any threat. They are relentless. I have seen them go into what I call "ballistic mode" over anything they perceived as a threat and that includes humans.

But they are so intelligent they know when intimidation from their barking is enough to deter a human and when they need to amp it up. Maybe you have seen some GP's that would back down from a human, in all breeds there are exceptions, maybe mine are the exceptions. But I can tell you there have been multiple occasions when my 2, if not for the fence would have happily "tag teamed" a human that they perceived as a threat. Tag teamed...it is almost as awesome to watch as a good herder. It is why I keep TWO. As said, the only thing that would have stopped these two would have been a gun.

My property is fenced so my two won't become "disapyrs" LOL and I have considered that limiting their area to an acre with chain link fence has amped their guarding intensity...I don't know. I do know that whatever they have decided to guard...they will protect with their life. As witnessed the day a bear ran through the field by my house. I thought the fence wouldn't hold them that day as they were backing up and making a run for it. I think only the fact that I was standing there trying(that being the optimum word) to defuse the situation kept them from going over the fence. They, however, continued to patrol that fence long after they had calmed down. Never underestimate a Pyr. I saw them in action that day and even though I knew they could move when necessary...I was astounded at their speed and agility. I am sure they would employ that same speed and agility against a human they decided was a threat. No doubt in my mind.

All that said, I have owned a German Shepherd/Rottweiler mix and she was willing to take on all comers animal and human, her ONLY fault was she didn't seem to know how to distinguish the difference as well as my Pyrs. Her guarding/nurturing instincts were unbelievable. She was a "one in a million" dog. I've never owned Dobermans but have had family who had them. I know they have run coyotes off the property and I know/have witnessed their loyalty and "heart". I would not want to see a Doberman tangle with a bear. I have no doubt they would try. Just as my Rotti/Shepherd mix would have. I don't think it would end well. I have owned rescues/"mutts" of various types that were exceptional dogs. Any dog can be exceptional that is bonded to you even if their bred in instincts pull them one way or another.

Sorry I rambled. I just HATE to see GP's underestimated. Or any dog for that matter. As the saying goes, "it is not the dog that is in the fight, it is the fight that is in the dog". Create the relationship/bond with your dog and watch them rise to the occasion whether they are well suited for it or not. That is what makes dogs dogs.

 

[Hallock234]

Sorry as the owner of 2 Great Pyrenees I have to agree with CASDOG1 and MrsBacbach. As said their size and all that hair, especially around the neck is so they can fight off multiple predators and they do not fold. They. Do. Not. Fold. Against any threat. They are relentless. I have seen them go into what I call "ballistic mode" over anything they perceived as a threat and that includes humans.

But they are so intelligent they know when intimidation from their barking is enough to deter a human and when they need to amp it up. Maybe you have seen some GP's that would back down from a human, in all breeds there are exceptions, maybe mine are the exceptions.

But I can tell you there have been multiple occasions when my 2, if not for the fence would have happily "tag teamed" a human that they perceived as a threat. Tag teamed...it is almost as awesome to watch as a good herder. It is why I keep TWO. As said, the only thing that would have stopped these two would have been a gun.

My property is fenced so my two won't become "disapyrs" LOL and I have considered that limiting their area to an acre with chain link fence has amped their guarding intensity...I don't know. I do know that whatever they have decided to guard...they will protect with their life. As witnessed the day a bear ran through the field by my house. I thought the fence wouldn't hold them that day as they were backing up and making a run for it. I think only the fact that I was standing there trying(that being the optimum word) to defuse the situation kept them from going over the fence. They, however, continued to patrol that fence long after they had calmed down. Never underestimate a Pyr. I saw them in action that day and even though I knew they could move when necessary...I was astounded at their speed and agility. I am sure they would employ that same speed and agility against a human they decided was a threat. No doubt in my mind.

All that said, I have owned a German Shepherd/Rottweiler mix and she was willing to take on all comers animal and human, her ONLY fault was she didn't seem to know how to distinguish the difference as well as my Pyrs. Her guarding/nurturing instincts were unbelievable. She was a "one in a million" dog. I've never owned Dobermans but have had family who had them. I know they have run coyotes off the property and I know/have witnessed their loyalty and "heart". I would not want to see a Doberman tangle with a bear. I have no doubt they would try. Just as my Rotti/Shepherd mix would have. I don't think it would end well. I have owned rescues/"mutts" of various types that were exceptional dogs. Any dog can be exceptional that is bonded to you even if their bred in instincts pull them one way or another.

Sorry I rambled. I just HATE to see GP's underestimated. Or any dog for that matter. As the saying goes, "it is not the dog that is in the fight, it is the fight that is in the dog". Create the relationship/bond with your dog and watch them rise to the occasion whether they are well suited for it or not. That is what makes dogs dogs.

I'm reluctant to engage with this conversation, because I don't want to see this turn into a breed debate. But I do need to add my input on what I consider to be common misconceptions:

1) GP's and most other LGD's are landrace breeds that have been bred, raised and trained to protect livestock against animal predators. The majority of them (including GP's) were bred specifically to be calm or neutral around human strangers, especially in recent times where litigation and societal acceptance make it difficult to have pasture dog that is people-aggressive. There are only a few LGD breeds of eastern European or Asian breeding which were bred specifically to be hostile and aggressive with human strangers in addition to animal predators (Tibetan Mastiffs and Caucasian Ovcharka's would be prime examples). I've no doubt GP's make very good LGD's. And I'm sure it would demonstrate some protectiveness of its human family if it saw a 2-legged aggressor. But I encourage you to go look at the type of training and stress that working police and protection dogs get put through (there are plenty of youtube channels to check out). Just about any dog can raise its hackles, bark, bare teeth and even throw in a few bites when confronting a human aggressor. However, it takes a dog with a certain temperament and mentality to actually want to engage and continue to fight with a human. When most dogs, including most LGD's, bark, bare teeth and bite humans, they're doing it as an avoidance technique...they are simply trying to persuade the human threat to leave it alone. It is for that reason that military, police and protection handlers use dedicated herding/working breeds (increasingly German Shepherds and Malinois, but in the past Rottweilers and Dobermans were used as well). Like I said, a GP makes a great LGD, but I highly doubt most, if any, would be capable of handling dedicated police or protection work. With the exception of some of those eastern and asian breeds I mentioned previously, most LGD's simply aren't wired to confront and fight with aggressive humans...that's not a knock on the GP, it's simply inherent to how the breed has been developed and raised over the years.

2) Your reluctance to have your Shepherd/Rottweiler mix engage with an animal predator makes sense. Most dogs have some amount of protective instincts but only a select few are really capable and smart enough to effectively ward off predators. When I said earlier that a doberman or other herding breed could hold off or dispatch coyotes, and to some degree other predators, I was referring to dogs of working heritage. There is big difference between your average mutt or even an AKC-bred German Shepherd and the type of dogs that are actually used for herding, guarding, patrol and protection work. IMHO, German Shepherds, Dobermans, and Rottweiler's of working heritage have more than enough grit and fighting drive to ward off and, if needed, eliminate problem coyotes. And as long as they are raised and exposed to the dangers of the wilderness, they are more than capable of learning how to manage and deal with the more extreme threats (cougar, wolf, bear). I'm not saying that these breeds are well-suited for LGD work, because they aren't...they're much too people oriented. But because they have been selectively bred and trained, over many generations, to track, herd, guard and protect, their temperaments and protective instincts have been vetted and tested.

 

[Hallock234]

Dobermans were originally developed to deal with people, not predators. Human beings are delicate and dainty things. It doesn't take much to take one of us out.

It actually takes a lot for a dog to confront and engage a human. Mind you, I'm not talking about a poorly-trained mutt growling at or even biting a scared human. I'm talking about a police dog actively tracking down, biting and then subduing a hostile stranger, or a protection dog fighting against a home invader while ignoring fists and or knife wounds and loud noises.

Most dogs, having been bred to be companions to humans, are inclined to be neutral, if not necessarily friendly with strangers. It is very much against their nature to want to actively confront and fight with a human because of how they have been bred and raised over thousands of years. Of those dogs that are people-aggressive, the overwhelming majority are that way because they are fearful or uncertain, not because they are dominant and protective (that's a huge misconception people have about dog aggression). There are only a select minority of breeds (and working lines within those breeds) that are bred and trained to actually confront and fight with an aggressive/hostile human. And even within those so-called working lines, there are many individual dogs that don't pass muster.

A doberman, or a dog of a similar working/herding breed, that is capable and willing of defending it's owner or family against human attackers is, generally-speaking, a well-sorted, even-tempered and very confident dog and would have no problem dealing with a coyote in a self-defense scenario. These working dogs have been tested to protect, attack, and even hunt (albeit human prey)...it would be no problem to transition those skill sets from being human-focused to being animal-focused. Again, I'm not saying a doberman makes a good LGD...All of this is in response to the poster who claimed that a doberman would be no match for a coyote. That statement is a broad and grossly inaccurate generalization that ignores the many nuances that exist with this topic.

 

[Birdydeb]

"All of this is in response to the poster who claimed that a doberman would be no match for a coyote. That statement is a broad and grossly inaccurate generalization that ignores the many nuances that exist with this topic."

I gotcha....and I agree. Just make sure you also don't underestimate a Great Pyrenees.

 

[AnnaCK]

This if off topic -- but does anyone have expierience with guardian dogs mourning the loss of one of the animals he is guarding? One of my ducks passed away this week, and I'm really hoping my sweet dog (Pyrenees/American Bull Dog/Rottweiler/? Rescue mix) who has taken on the role of guardian is depressed and not falling physically ill!! Nothing seems to be physically wrong but he is just not himself.

 

[Birdydeb]

Two years ago my sweet Boxer girl I rescued from a BYB died of cancer. My male GP mourned for weeks. She had been the first one to accept him as part of the pack almost from day one. My female GP was not as kind to him and for weeks it was just my Boxer girl and male GP playing together. The night she died he came out on the patio with me and laid his big old head in my lap for ...seriously.... hours. He wandered the house for weeks and I could tell he was looking for her. He was definitely grieving. Across species lines? Almost 10 years ago we lost our wonderful beautiful GSD/Rottweiler mix girl at 16 yo. Our male DYH Amazon parrot mourned her FOR MONTHS. They had been BIG buddies. He would sit dejectedly in his cage or on his stand and call her name just as he always had but of course she didn't come.

Animals do mourn each other, I have seen it time and again. Much like people it seems to be based on the individual relationship. I have had dogs and birds that seemed to out even notice when some died and I have them appear moderately out of sync ...all depends. And I have seen it across species lines. You just never know. I would just be extra loving and attentive. For our male GP We let him sniff the box with my girls ashes and he quit wandering the house looking for her. For the parrot, hubby took the bird and showed him the grave and talked to him. He quit calling out for her.

Coincidence? I don't know. But I know we have seemed to bring mourning to an end with this type thing by doing this. Good luck. As long as your dog is eating something, staying hydrated and moving around, if it were me I would just watch/observe. If it gets worse instead of better I would probably consider a vet visit. Is it possible to show him the duck is gone?