Livestock guardian dogs

[justmom]

Newbie here. Anybody have any experience with livestock guardian dogs for their birds? Have a huge problem in the springtime with Raccoons and Foxes and year-round with straying dogs. Wondering if a Great Pyrenees would be the way to go.

 

[animals1981]

this is just for simple predators like bears, bobcats, foxes, fishers, coyotes, hawks, stray dogs I think 1 good dog is enough if its a really good dog from good bloodlines


but if you have pumas and wolves u will need a pack to deter them if they are serious

Because this will happen with large predators like a wolf or a puma will make quick work if they are dead serious



Note the breed is a great pyr which is usually the LGD that often is victimized by predators. If you want a serious dog do your research and get something that can handle a stronger predator. This dog was killed by a single wolf.

 

[lgdnevada]

First and foremost, do you really need an LGD? And are you prepared for the responsibility that goes with ownership of one?

http://spanishmastiff.blogspot.com/2016/11/do-you-really-need-livestock-guardian.html

On the topic of breed selection, I see far too many people getting into more than they can chew, fad buying breeds for their exotic appeal, while totally unprepared for owning a huge dog that in some breeds can have a complex, sharp, antisocial temperament and are too aggressive.

http://spanishmastiff.blogspot.com/2016/02/more-aggressive-lgd-breeds-is-that-what.html

and

http://spanishmastiff.blogspot.com/2017/02/yourlivestock-guardian-dog-liability-or.html

When I consulted for and helped develop the American Sheep Industry's Working Dog Liability Insurance Program, trust me, two of the biggest concerns amongst those involved were the use of too aggressive LGD breeds and the subject of handling/socializing pups from birth vs. hands off, don't touch rearing. ASI does not promote hands off, no touch rearing of LGDs. The liability is too high, the risk too great. Those training methods fell out of favor years ago and now are highly frowned on and discouraged.

As for breed selection - too many unstable breeds being brought over from Eastern Bloc and Turkish countries with dog fighting, police and military backgrounds and hardly any livestock guarding in their native countries. These dogs in turn are being dumped by the truck load in the USA (read the blog post above about more aggressive LGD breeds - it is an eye opener) as being vicious, too aggressive, no nurturing or guardian instinct of livestock but plenty of trigger haired temperaments, being pumped out by backyard fad breeders for money, who know next to nothing about raising LGDs the right way. It's gotten quite ugly. And no I'm not making this up: http://pvtimes.com/news/county-upholds-denial-kennels-use-permit.html Be sure and read the breeds this puppy miller has. Enough said…..

But back to the OP's original question. The biggest faux pas out there of most newbie LGD owners is they expect too much from the dog (instant problem fixer) and not enough from themselves. They are armchair farmers who think all they have to do is toss the dog out in the sheep and walk off. NOT. This is a huge commitment. Do it right or don't do it at all. And one dog is not enough. LGDs need to be run in pairs, threes or more. If you can't afford that, then fix your fences and look into other means of deterring predators. LGDs are not herding dogs nor are herding dogs LGDs. Apples and oranges. And the two should never be bred together. ASI strongly frowns on that too.

As for LGDs guarding chickens. I wrote two articles for two different magazines which have already been referenced in another thread I think, on how to raise up LGD pups with fowl successfully; here is one of them from Countryside Magazine, the other was in Backyard Poultry.

If I sound harsh or curt, understand, I've been breeding and training these dogs for years and have written extensively about them and had my dogs in print and in film; I have done expert witness work on a legal case with LGDs and have served as a consultant to many people on LGD issues and training matters. I have seen the epic fail rate out there of too many LGD and hobby farmers and grow so exasperated when people think they can just add one dog to their set up and it's an instant fix. It is anything but. Please avail yourself to the many posts on my blog that go into training and breed selection and more. The more you can learn before you jump into this, the better for you and the dog. Too many failures out there already…..

 

[Lone Wolf]

I don't have one but from what I have seen Anatolian Shepherds OR Great Pyrenees are the best.

 

[animals1981]

I find great pry not fierce enough, anything that has been used as show dog or being bred as pets i just wont use. I prefer dogs that nothing but working dogs in their backround. With a good dog I expect to not lose 1 hen or anything. Also they should be able to dispatch predators without hurting themselves so we dont have to take them to the vet which will make it more expensive. Their kills should be clean and quick. A heeler or whatever else dog catches a coyote there is going to be some nasty nasty bites alll over your dog. WIth a good LGD you should not have that issue. Also they aren't family pets id expect them to live with the animals 24/7 not just sometimes.

The good thing about komadors they have this thick fur that protects them from predator bites. So if a coon or something attacks them back they are well protected.





remember tho never pet lines always working lines never show lines

 

[INFIDEL]

I agree with most of what is being said here...
FIrst and most important is my OPINION that birds are the most difficult livestock for LGD's to work with... too tempting for puppies to play rough with... its not really a breed thing, pyr vs ana vs marama... but the luck of the draw with the pup you get from the litter... you want the pup no later than 9 weeks old... between 2-4months of age the dog will build 90% of his socialization skills..... this is the most important time to have him around livestock... and when it comes to birds its best if the breeder has the pups with birds from day one...
Having said all of this I would NEVER leave my pups alone with livestock until they have chilled out/aged... even if they are perfect with the birds... you have to be there to correct them the its time something goes wrong or starts too... DON'T TRUST A PUPPY... different breeds chill at different rates... from my experience Anatolians/kangals take about 1-2 years... I have been trying Boz Shepherds recently and they chill much faster, maybe 10-14 months...
Any other livestock guardian dogs like Great Pyr get slaughtered by the wolves we have here and even coyotes as I know of one woman who watched her huge male Pyr get its neck broke in one bite by a large coyote...(no Spike collar)
The only other LGD's that can go up against a wolf and have a chance, like ovcharkas, are usually time bombs and too dangerous in this day and age...
The Boz Shepherd's are the best of both world... They don't bluff bark like (animals1981) talks about... the wolves see my dogs barking with intent to kill not just deter them, and then they keep walking... this has happened many times... (when my neighbors dogs bark at wolves, they get eaten).... But also the Boz Shepherds are basically Bombproof with kids... Truly the best of both worlds... a rarity in the dog world... Most LGD's either are too friendly and weak OR super strong/viscous and a liability...
Check NaturalBornGuardians.com
I have bought a few Boz Shepherds from him over the years... great bloodlines, good business man with good ethics, I have been robbed blind by some LGD breeders.... NBG is great
I guess the best way to put it is, IMHO they are the best LGD's... super athletes, super tough, super weather hardy, super good w livestock, super good with people, super HUGE
They may be overkill for you if you don't have Grizzly, Mt.Lions or Wolves... But who wants a small LGD??? And these guys can run faster and farther than you can fathom...
Here is my male with a Kid he met 2 minutes before the photo... he is NEVER around kids... but he does love them dearly... All my Boz Shepherds LOVE Children...
Call NBG and ask him(Brian) for some input... he has a lot of experience to offer...

 

[truth is]

this is just for simple predators like bears, bobcats, foxes, fishers, coyotes, hawks, stray dogs I think 1 good dog is enough if its a really good dog from good bloodlines


but if you have pumas and wolves u will need a pack to deter them if they are serious

Because this will happen with large predators like a wolf or a puma will make quick work if they are dead serious



Note the breed is a great pyr which is usually the LGD that often is victimized by predators. If you want a serious dog do your research and get something that can handle a stronger predator. This dog was killed by a single wolf.

The problem with grabbing pictures off the internet to help promote your breed of choice is that it can backfire. If I remember correctly the rancher who owned the dogs said it was four wolves against five Great Pyrenees. Those are really tough odds for any LGD.

So I strongly suggest for the original poster to do your own research, and do everything to get to the source. One poster here who wants to be thought an expert is really nothing more than a breeder, and does not even have a real farm.

 

[lgdnevada]

Birdydeb, I'm chuckling because my honest and frank way of saying things regularly gets me booted off most forums, groups and / or my comments deleted.

I care about these dogs and know their potential for helping people with predator problems. I care enough about them to call out the bad practices and that's where PC meets reality and people get feathers ruffled.

I'm glad you appreciated my post and links.

I try to help people as best I can. But you know how it is: you can lead a horse to water but…..you can't force them to drink. Ultimately, they succeed or fail. Some get it, too many don't.

The LGD scene in America is at a crisis stage and I'm one of the few writers if not the only one out there with the cajones (sorry) to say it. Most others want to sugar coat and mollycoddle. So the vicious circle continues. Folks, do your homework first - and consider carefully who you take advice from.

This week I'm trying to pound out a blog post on what to look for in an LGD breeder - good, bad ugly stuff - and what a good customer has in terms of traits. When I get it done I'll post it up on a thread here maybe this thread since it seems to be the main LGD one.

Thanks again…..best wishes.

 

[aart]

Any dog will need some pretty serious training, so if you're not up to doing that you could just be introducing another problem. Here's a forum with some good info on LGD's http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/guard-animals/

 

[centrarchid]

Great Pyrenees, Anatolian and Akbash are breeds suitable but training phase will be needed in addition to any imprinting efforts usually employed when dogs used for livestock they bred to guard (chickens not on that list). Competitence around poultry may take a year, possibly two and the full capacity to detour medium to large dogs will not be reliazed until about two. Depending upon your setup, foxes may continue to be a problem since they will still hunt in sight of a dog unless dog can actually deny fox's ability to snatch and run. Fences are usually your friend with LGD's but fox can use it as cover is birds go thru and get away from immediate vicinity of where dog can do job. Raccoons should not be problem if dogs can get to them.

Be prepared to invest time and dog can easily be more expensive than flock is guards.