Livestock guardian dogs

[tuner06]

Hello I'm looking for a guardian dog for my flock. I want a Great Pyreneess. But I keep getting told to get a herding dog.
Like a border collie. Anyone have any thoughts.


Thanks.
Rob

 

[aart]

Hello I'm looking for a guardian dog for my flock. I want a Great Pyreneess. But I keep getting told to get a herding dog.
Like a border collie. Anyone have any thoughts.


Thanks.
Rob

Read this entire thread?

 

[Phoenixxx]

Hello I'm looking for a guardian dog for my flock. I want a Great Pyreneess. But I keep getting told to get a herding dog.
Like a border collie. Anyone have any thoughts.


Thanks.
Rob

Have you looked into the kuvasz? I have two of them. They are a fierce LGD but have been known to herd as well. In fact, the first time i let the chickens out after getting the second puppy, she immediately herded the whole flock back into the coop! Do talk to breeders, though, to find the best dog. Different lines will carry slightly different traits. My girls came from two different breeders; the first one showed a natural desire for tracking (she led me to a stolen hen, and wouldn't calm down until i let her go find it) while the second one is clueless in that regard; but the second one likes to herd, whereas the first one not so much.

A herding dog is very high energy. They are also much smaller in build. If you expect them to fend off a coyote or a lynx, for example, you will likely wind up with a dead dog and dead chickens. If you are looking for a chicken protector, get a dog bred for the purpose - an LGD. If you're looking for a chicken herder, get a herding dog. If you want one that does both, look into the kuvasz or talk to other LGD breeders to find out if their dogs have any secondary "special skills". It still will be hit-or-miss; ideally you should get two dogs, one for each purpose. I don't think i've met a shepherd yet that has ONLY LGDs or ONLY border collies - they have a few of each.

 

[MrsBachbach]

Hello I'm looking for a guardian dog for my flock. I want a Great Pyreneess. But I keep getting told to get a herding dog.
Like a border collie. Anyone have any thoughts.


Thanks.
Rob

No not a herding dog or a bird dog or any dog bred for another purpose. You are on the right track getting a Pyrenees. All dogs require training, but those bred for the purpose you are seeking will give you a greater success rate in, hopefully, a shorter amount of time.

 

[Birdydeb]

My two GP's do a FANTASTIC job guarding my chickens and ducks. I can't figure out why someone would tell you not to get GP's. Strange.

 

[Hallock234]

Hello I'm looking for a guardian dog for my flock. I want a Great Pyreneess. But I keep getting told to get a herding dog.
Like a border collie. Anyone have any thoughts.


Thanks.
Rob

Where do you live and what kind of predator populations are you dealing with?

Herding dogs and LGD's are very different, temperament-wise, energy-wise and training-wise.

If you live in an area with coyote-sized predators and bigger, then I would recommend getting an LGD. Even within the LGD "category" there are very different types of dogs. You have GP's, Anatolian's, Maremma's which are very good LGD's in addition to being very good with people (as long as they are properly socialized). You also have eastern European Ovcharkas (central asian, caucasian) and other types (Tibetan Mastiffs, Kangals) which are known to be a bit more aggressive with predators but also are more inclined to challenge and confront humans as well. You'll need to research the different breeds to figure out which one makes sense for your situation.

If you're dealing with a small flock of chickens, then I don't know why anyone would tell you to get a herding dog. Herding dogs are mostly used on pasture-raised livestock (cattle, sheep, ect.) which they gather and/or manage, as commanded by a rancher or shepherd. If all you need is for the chickens to be corralled and brought into a yard every now and then, then I would look for another type of dog, like a general purpose farm dog or manageable LGD. Not saying that you can't use a herding dog to round up chickens, but if you don't know how to train these dogs and if you don't keep them properly employed, they will cause problems for you. LGD's are not herding dogs; they don't have the prey instincts to gather and move livestock as directed by a farmer or shepherd, plain and simple. That said, some of them are known to keep their livestock from wandering off for the sake of protection. That's not the same as herding, but for your purposes, a LGD with that kind of instinct might be well-suited for what you're trying to do.

 

[lgdnevada]

First and foremost, do you really need an LGD? And are you prepared for the responsibility that goes with ownership of one?

http://spanishmastiff.blogspot.com/2016/11/do-you-really-need-livestock-guardian.html

On the topic of breed selection, I see far too many people getting into more than they can chew, fad buying breeds for their exotic appeal, while totally unprepared for owning a huge dog that in some breeds can have a complex, sharp, antisocial temperament and are too aggressive.

http://spanishmastiff.blogspot.com/2016/02/more-aggressive-lgd-breeds-is-that-what.html

and

http://spanishmastiff.blogspot.com/2017/02/yourlivestock-guardian-dog-liability-or.html

When I consulted for and helped develop the American Sheep Industry's Working Dog Liability Insurance Program, trust me, two of the biggest concerns amongst those involved were the use of too aggressive LGD breeds and the subject of handling/socializing pups from birth vs. hands off, don't touch rearing. ASI does not promote hands off, no touch rearing of LGDs. The liability is too high, the risk too great. Those training methods fell out of favor years ago and now are highly frowned on and discouraged.

As for breed selection - too many unstable breeds being brought over from Eastern Bloc and Turkish countries with dog fighting, police and military backgrounds and hardly any livestock guarding in their native countries. These dogs in turn are being dumped by the truck load in the USA (read the blog post above about more aggressive LGD breeds - it is an eye opener) as being vicious, too aggressive, no nurturing or guardian instinct of livestock but plenty of trigger haired temperaments, being pumped out by backyard fad breeders for money, who know next to nothing about raising LGDs the right way. It's gotten quite ugly. And no I'm not making this up: http://pvtimes.com/news/county-upholds-denial-kennels-use-permit.html Be sure and read the breeds this puppy miller has. Enough said…..

But back to the OP's original question. The biggest faux pas out there of most newbie LGD owners is they expect too much from the dog (instant problem fixer) and not enough from themselves. They are armchair farmers who think all they have to do is toss the dog out in the sheep and walk off. NOT. This is a huge commitment. Do it right or don't do it at all. And one dog is not enough. LGDs need to be run in pairs, threes or more. If you can't afford that, then fix your fences and look into other means of deterring predators. LGDs are not herding dogs nor are herding dogs LGDs. Apples and oranges. And the two should never be bred together. ASI strongly frowns on that too.

As for LGDs guarding chickens. I wrote two articles for two different magazines which have already been referenced in another thread I think, on how to raise up LGD pups with fowl successfully; here is one of them from Countryside Magazine, the other was in Backyard Poultry.

If I sound harsh or curt, understand, I've been breeding and training these dogs for years and have written extensively about them and had my dogs in print and in film; I have done expert witness work on a legal case with LGDs and have served as a consultant to many people on LGD issues and training matters. I have seen the epic fail rate out there of too many LGD and hobby farmers and grow so exasperated when people think they can just add one dog to their set up and it's an instant fix. It is anything but. Please avail yourself to the many posts on my blog that go into training and breed selection and more. The more you can learn before you jump into this, the better for you and the dog. Too many failures out there already…..

 

[Birdydeb]

Amen and amen. Thank you! I live in a rural area and the number of LGD's showing up in dog shelters is breaking my heart. Too many people setting their dogs up for failure because they don't understand the breed. I have 2 GP's and I tell people who ooh and aah....do your homework, research and read...yes, guarding is instinctive but....your dog will still need training and help learning what you expect it to guard. The most heartbreaking thing I hear on a regular basis is a LGD dumped at a shelter because it killed chickens. or a local ad....loves the goats, kills chickens, free to good home....where someone will jump at the "free dog" and take their "instinctive guard dog" home and repeat the cycle...until or unless someone who has a clue steps in and rescues the poor LGD. I have watched this unfold TOO MANY times and I just want to scream. Thank you for being honest and realistic. It is much needed....

 

[lgdnevada]

Birdydeb, I'm chuckling because my honest and frank way of saying things regularly gets me booted off most forums, groups and / or my comments deleted.

I care about these dogs and know their potential for helping people with predator problems. I care enough about them to call out the bad practices and that's where PC meets reality and people get feathers ruffled.

I'm glad you appreciated my post and links.

I try to help people as best I can. But you know how it is: you can lead a horse to water but…..you can't force them to drink. Ultimately, they succeed or fail. Some get it, too many don't.

The LGD scene in America is at a crisis stage and I'm one of the few writers if not the only one out there with the cajones (sorry) to say it. Most others want to sugar coat and mollycoddle. So the vicious circle continues. Folks, do your homework first - and consider carefully who you take advice from.

This week I'm trying to pound out a blog post on what to look for in an LGD breeder - good, bad ugly stuff - and what a good customer has in terms of traits. When I get it done I'll post it up on a thread here maybe this thread since it seems to be the main LGD one.

Thanks again…..best wishes.

 

[MrsBachbach]

Amen and amen. Thank you! I live in a rural area and the number of LGD's showing up in dog shelters is breaking my heart. Too many people setting their dogs up for failure because they don't understand the breed. I have 2 GP's and I tell people who ooh and aah....do your homework, research and read...yes, guarding is instinctive but....your dog will still need training and help learning what you expect it to guard. The most heartbreaking thing I hear on a regular basis is a LGD dumped at a shelter because it killed chickens.

or a local ad....loves the goats, kills chickens, free to good home....where someone will jump at the "free dog" and take their "instinctive guard dog" home and repeat the cycle...until or unless someone who has a clue steps in and rescues the poor LGD. I have watched this unfold TOO MANY times and I just want to scream. Thank you for being honest and realistic. It is much needed....

I went against the typical rules when choosing my GP. I chose the one that shied away and wasn't all eager to jump all over me! Took her home at three months old, put her in a dog house right next to the juvenile chick (she could see but not reach) pen and started my training. First was getting her to walk on leash. Second, learn commands, which she actually did start catching on in only a few days, two walks on leash around the perimeter (three basically unfenced acres in rural area) of my home/yard and chicken pens every day. I didn't walk the whole three acres, just the area we and the chickens spend time in. Continued on my commands while we did our walk. Anytime we were not training, she was leashed near the pens. After a week I started taking her in the pens with me on a very short leash. She wanted to play with the birds and any time she made a move toward them, she was corrected. That big paw, while playful, can seriously damage a bird. That was my routine for about two more weeks and then I finally let her off the leash for good with the free range birds. She never bothered the birds but there were a few times when she wouldn't listen or tried to ignore me and I took an approach I read about of having to physically dominate her by putting her down on the ground, covering her with my body and putting my hand firmly on her neck (like a mother dog would do to discipline) and holding her still til she relaxed. This was necessary to show who is boss. She knows I'm boss when she is on leash, it's when she is off, that she thinks she is. GP's are hardheaded, but they were bred to think for themselves and make decisions on threats on their own, so a bit of "wanting to take over" is to be expected. When I'm not around, she makes decisions and that is fine with me. She has never wandered off beyond calling distance, something most people seem to have problems with. She sticks around the house with the two cats (which she loves) and the chickens and us. She was spayed at appropriate time, she had a few trips to town with me and my husband to the petfood store and vet for more socialization. Anyway, I didn't want a dog that attacked people so felt socialization was important as I have bikers and runners and walkers that appear on our road, some daily. Her inherent shyness has kept her from approaching people. She still won't approach people even after 9 years(which is fine, I don't have to worry about her being stolen). I have no doubt though if I was ever attacked that she wouldn't respond. We have plenty of predators in this area (coyote, bobcat, bear), along with other peoples dogs and she has done a fine job on her own, only 3 birds lost in 9 years.

I like to tell a story regarding your bolded part in your response, especially "what you expect it to guard". I have a neighbor who runs almost daily with his dog by my house. My GP was about 18 months old (almost full grown at that age) when she was first tested with other dogs. Up to this point, possums, coons and other predators, she dispatched readily or kept them at bay. But, she never had to confront another dog. One day sitting on my couch I looked up to see him running across my yard. I went outside to see what the heck was going on and there I saw him trying to wrangle his dog out from under my house and my GP was about 5 feet behind him, bouncing around, looking on and confused, not sure what the heck to do, it seemed to me. We have a small opening for access under the house and that's where my neighbor was. Well he pulled his dog out and shook and hit the thing. I felt sorry for the dog. Man obviously doesn't understand dogs or training. He apologized profusely and offered to come back and get the chicken(now dead) out from under the house and pay for it. I asked him to just keep his dog leashed while jogging past, some dogs just go after chickens. So, the guy leaves, I get the chicken out from under the house and then show her to my dog. I let her sniff it and I shook it at her and said in a very loud, stern voice, that this is her job, she is here to protect the chickens and she better do her dang job. She knew I was mad, she started chasing her tail. She does that when she is being fussed at and knows I'm upset with her. Well about two days later the guy comes running by again with his dog (off the leash) and I see my dog run past my window. By the time I get outside, he, his dog and my GP are down in the field and he is trying to catch his dog. He finally catches it, puts it on his leash (he said it got off

) and tells me my GP did a good job! She went right after that dog and chased it off in the field. From that day forward, every time they pass by, she is right up there on the road a few feet behind them barking and growling and basically making the dog go on it's way. My runner seems irritated with her now, but, his dog started it and she has never forgot her lesson she learned on that day. Any dog that even so much as looks at the chickens now, gets her attention. Others dogs have gone by peacefully and never got harrassed by her, but any that go after the birds are promptly run off and she remembers them.
She has done a fine job, I've never run into the problems so many talk about and I'm going to miss her dearly when she is gone.