Livestock guardian dogs?

[centrarchid]

You can use your grazers to help with some of the forage species changes. Let them graze some areas really close then reseed. I will be doing that and some prescribed burns. Some of my pasture will be converted to warm season grasses, some will remain fescue dominated and yet another portion will be managed for a lot of forbs that prefer wetter conditions.

 

[MrsBachbach]

Centrarchid, you're probably right in that it might be overkill.  I just remember my grandpa telling me about how he used to lose newborn calves to coyotes and I can easily see losing kids and lambs, or even grown goats and sheep.  These animals will essentially be our grocery store, so losing any of them is not an option.  I want to see all my options, but what with the newfie literally breaking into the chicken coop, maybe I'm a little paranoid about fence failure    The cost of any single animal doesn't even compare to the cost of a single LGD, so that's definitely something to think about.  The cost of our entire livestock population would definitely meet or exceed the cost of the dog, but then losing an entire population is unrealistic.

Our 45 lb dog does a great job keeping animals at bay.  But the chicken coop and goat pen are literally right by the house right now.  It will be moved into fenced pasture where our current dog will never be allowed to set foot without direct supervision.  He won't be able to harass livestock, but conversely, he won't be able to harass the predators either when the thing they came for is out of the dog's sight.  Basically the situation is, I NEED a dog out there, but I don't trust a non-LGD to live with the livestock.  So it's a tricky situation, a LGD is an expensive dog, and two would far, far outweigh the value of our entire flock.  But...I still NEED a dog out there that I can trust around lambs, kids, and birds.

Rhandi, that's kind of how we feel.  I know a proper LGD is quite an investment, but so are decently bred boer goats and sheep.  I doubt the cost of our goats and sheep will exceed the cost of a LGD but add in chickens, a pig or two, ducks, turkeys, more rabbits, and the supplemental hay and feed we might be buying it's looking like a fair trade.  But then we're planning on a 4-5' pasture fence with hotwire so I can't decide if a LGD is really a good investment or not.

You know if you look around at all sources, internet, craigslist, rescue groups, newspapers, etc., you may be able to find an LGD you can afford. I only paid $150 for mine. They normally cost more than that, but I guess she was desperate to unload some pups. Mine was not working on a farm either. She was 12 weeks old when I bought her and I did spend a few weeks working with her everyday before turning her loose, but she has done a good job for a non farm LGD. However, my coops are close to the house, not on other acreage like you are talking about. It may make a difference and as others have said, you may need two if dealing with large predators.

Another thing you may consider are LGD's that are mixed, like a Pyrennes/Anatolian mix. I would think that those would come a little cheaper simply because they are a mix instead of purebred. Both are LGDs.

 

[jasmer]

centrarchid-yeah, we wanted to do some intense rotational grazing to clear the front half of the property. After using a push lawn mower to clear over an acre already I think we're done with that lol. Once the knapweed is down, we just have a lot of grass. Depending on where it is, it grows either super fast, or super slow. It's northern Idaho, so it's probably native fescue. Also have some indian ricegrass and other suitable forage out there, but it's too sparse for me to really want to call it "pasture" lol. The property was originally owned by a repairman, and when he moved out he took all his half-buried cars and lawn mower parts with him. We've got all the metal gone, but there are holes that need filled and some leveling to do. Found what looks like old rabbit colonies or something out there too, so tripping hazards. I stepped into one and fell flat on my face lol.

Lots of work to do yet, but we'll probably let goats take care of most of it. If we can find enough people interested in going in on some pigs we'll concoct some sort of rotation system with pigs and let them tear it up, then re-seed. Still, over seeding is definitely an option if pigs aren't.

Our plot is pretty much the same thing everywhere, so I'm just going to go with a uniform pasture blend, but hopefully I can come up with something diverse and not just a grass blend. I've got some ideas in mind, so excited

MrsBachbach - Thanks for the advice. I've also thought about looking into rescues, or breeders who might be "retiring" older adult dogs. Not sure if people ever "retire" LGDs for any reason other than injury or old age, though. Rescue is also an option. It'd be a working dog, no kids around unless directly supervised so I don't know that I have to be quite so picky as I would be when looking for a family pet that would, you know, live inside with us and our other dog. I might put something up on Craigslist if we decide we're in the market for a LGD.

Given our little up and coming farm, the fact that even our eventual flock will probably consist mostly of birds, we're rural but everyone around here is on 5-10 acres so we're still a little close together and on good terms with all our neighbors, and mostly have problems with skunks, coons, and coyotes on any consistent basis, can either of you make any suggestions regarding breeds that might fit our needs best?

Thanks for all the help, guys.

 

[MrsBachbach]

I have read that Pyrennes are the least aggressive of the LGDs. That was a huge concern of mine since I have neighbors around me. I didn't want a dog that was going to act aggressively with everything it encountered, just with what it perceived as a threat. She now knows of two dogs in our area that are threats, and even so, when the neighbor comes jogging by with his dog she will not visciously attack that dog, but will bark, growl and be on that dog's heels until it passes by the area. That is a good thing. I don't need the neighbor sueing me for vet bills.

 

[zazouse]

I have read that Pyrennes are the least aggressive of the LGDs. That was a huge concern of mine since I have neighbors around me. I didn't want a dog that was going to act aggressively with everything it encountered, just with what it perceived as a threat. She now knows of two dogs in our area that are threats, and even so, when the neighbor comes jogging by with his dog she will not visciously attack that dog, but will bark, growl and be on that dog's heels until it passes by the area. That is a good thing. I don't need the neighbor sueing me for vet bills.

I have a variety of breeds here and the Pyrenees is the least aggressive towards people , however if someone comes jogging by my place and their dog acts aggressive when any of my dogs approaches my Pyrenees and other dogs will take that as a threat and act accordingly , i live in a seclude area within my own acreage and have no close neighbors and it is a rare thing that anyone would come down here so i am ok with my dogs doing what they are here to do.
IMO if you live close to anyone you need a fence to contain your dogs and another animals cause the risk is to high to take a chance

 

[NEChickenNoob]

I have had a GP before. Great dog! But if you are planning on expanding in 1-2 years. By both of them now. Buy from a good breeder who had his dogs screened for Hip problems. In large breeds this is common and will shorten the usefulness of a LGD by several years. Plan on them living 7-10 years. You could get a breeding pair and make your line sustainable and make a few bucks off selling Farm LGD's pups. You could even get one GP and one other compatible LGD breed and cross them. If both are screened for hip issues, you can a lot of the time come out with a great line with some selective breeding.

 

[4 the Birds]

Yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. We're taking our time. Next year or the following year we'll work in major pasture improvement, still deciding if I'm just going to overseed a pasture blend or tear it all up and start from scratch.

The goats we're getting are about a year old, or close to it. By the time we do have a LGD we'll probably have kids from those goats, though. Our current chicken coop is a tool shed we've put an 8' fence around. Eventually we want to move it further away from the house and actually use the shed.

For us, all the animals are a concern because they're groceries first and foremost, including the goats. Goat meat is quite tasty. I don't know what our capacity is as far as pastured animals goes in my area yet, and the only "improvement" one of the pastures has is that we took the lawn mower in there and cleared knapweed and shrubs.

I'll think about the LGD, maybe getting two, we were perfectly willing to throw down $2000 for a family pet, and figure a working dog is probably a better investment. Our pointer/heeler mix has a good herding instinct and can do so under supervision, but we still need something to stay out there with the animals.

Guardian dogs are always best in pairs so that they can work together. Our most alert and best guardian dog is an Aus Shepherd. Great Pyr are the standard when a livestock guardian dog is needed. I would go with standard 4 ft. high fencing for your perimeter fence and you can add a strand of barb wire on top or a hot wire if you wish. The 2x4 mesh no climb horse fencing is ideal for goat and chicken perimeter fencing (strong and small openings to keep out most critters). Our chickens free range with full size goats.

We have plenty of coyotes in our area and they stay clear up around the house and livestock area. Once they pick up the scent of the dog pack they do not wish to risk a confrontation. The dogs roam the property during the day but are pinned up during the night. Never had a predator get any livestock. A few weeks ago the dogs cornered a raccoon near our pond and it did not have much of a chance.

 

[MrsBachbach]

I have a variety of breeds here and the Pyrenees is the least aggressive towards people  , however if someone comes jogging by my place and their dog acts aggressive when any of my dogs approaches my Pyrenees and other dogs will take that as a threat and act accordingly , i live in a seclude area within my own acreage and have no close neighbors and it is a rare thing that anyone would come down here so i am ok with my dogs doing what they are here to do.
 IMO if you live close to anyone you need a fence to contain your dogs and another animals cause the risk is to high to take a chance

Nobody out here has fencing. They have barbed wire or decorative rail for the front if anything. Lot's are easy to fence. Acreage not so much. Very, very expensive and then you hinder the wildlife. Lots of deer around here. So far, people around here are pretty tolerant. On more occassions than I can count, my neighbors cows and calfs have escaped and been in my yard. I just let him know and he usually comes over and gets them back in with our help. Wandering dogs are run off if they are causing problems and owners notified if that is known. If people have a problem with your livestock or pets, they usually will let you know first before taking any serious action. Even though that neighbors dog killed my chicken (and other's I found out) I didn't ask anymore of him than to have his dog leashed when he jogged by, which he did. When he leaves my area he likely takes it off the leash. Fine with me. Another took a few calls to contain his chicken killers, but he didn't get serious until I told him I would hate to have to shoot his dog. Haven't seen the dog since.

 

[ChaoSS]

Since you mentioned electric fence, I cast my vote there. With dogs around that you are unable/unwilling to control/contain, electric wire can be kind of magical. When I couldn't keep my dogs inside my yard, I tried everything and they would still get out. A quick dose of EF and suddenly they were happy to stay home. Now, when I moved my chickens out into a run, I put the run together and put out one bird. The dogs went crazy trying to get at it, if I hadn't been there they would have torn through the wire and killed the bird. I put the chicken away, set up some ef around the run and put the bird back out. Dogs went crazy, but as soon as the female hit three EF she yelped and ran off, and instantly both dogs ceased caring about the birds. Seriously, it's like aren't there anymore.

 

[jasmer]

Nobody out here has fencing. They have barbed wire or decorative rail for the front if anything. Lot's are easy to fence. Acreage not so much. Very, very expensive and then you hinder the wildlife. Lots of deer around here. So far, people around here are pretty tolerant. On more occassions than I can count, my neighbors cows and calfs have escaped and been in my yard. I just let him know and he usually comes over and gets them back in with our help. Wandering dogs are run off if they are causing problems and owners notified if that is known. If people have a problem with your livestock or pets, they usually will let you know first before taking any serious action. Even though that neighbors dog killed my chicken (and other's I found out) I didn't ask anymore of him than to have his dog leashed when he jogged by, which he did. When he leaves my area he likely takes it off the leash. Fine with me. Another took a few calls to contain his chicken killers, but he didn't get serious until I told him I would hate to have to shoot his dog. Haven't seen the dog since.

Yeah, we're concerned about wildlife--particularly the resident moose and all the deer that pass through. Our little lot is full of game trails. That's why I really don't want to go any higher than 4 feet on the fencing with a hotwire over the top, so the wildlife can still do wildlife things...and if they happen to come within reach of the tree stand during hunting season.... I was gonna go with field fence since it's $180 for 330 feet at Home Depot (and cheaper on Craigslist probably) but I'm not entirely sure if it's "goat proof" and it's certainly not chicken proof lol.

ChaoSS - Yeah, I love me some electric fence. When I caught the neighbor's newfie in the chicken coop I put the fear of God in him, swatted him on the head and screamed and yelled and chased him out, he hasn't so much as looked in the general direction of the chicken coop since. We have an 8 foot fence around it, but our little ameracauna hen can fly out. And she does. She's out every morning with the dogs (not like we can prevent it until we get a hotwire over the top) and he won't even look at her. At this point if she gets eaten it's her own stupid fault, since she's escaped him TWICE and should know better so whatever. I do think a hot wire will keep him away, though.