Making auto sexing chicks with a cream legbar rooster.

[chiqita]

If you cross a cl too with standard colored we hens, does the salmon breast indicate a female still?

 

[BlueBaby]

I just did a google search and it brought me to this thread. I know this thread hasn't been active in awhile, but I was wondering if I could create an auto-sexing Naked Neck from 3 Transylvanian NN hens that are buff in color, but have the barring look in the feathering. I also picked up some of those Crested Cream Legbar's. Will I be able to make some auto-sexing NN's from these?

 

[GaryDean26]

I read an article in the Cream Legbar Club newsletter earlier this month on the Opal Legbar Project. The Author started by defining terms that are used in breeding projects. IT was one of the clearest explanations that I have seen. She said that in the Opal project it was very important to not confuse Sex-links with Auto-sexing. She explained that Sex-link are created by breeding two different breeds together. Because each of the foundation breeds are pure bred the out come is predictable and had a degree of uniformity in appearance. You how ever can not breed the Sex-links together and get more sexlinks. She started the Opal Legbars with a cross of Cream Legbars and Isabel Leghorns and said it was very important to keep good records because her goal at the end of the project was to have auto-sexing and if she made the wrong cross with the sex-link it would ruin the autosexing and with out know which birds were sex-links and which weren't it would be more work to get back to were she was than to start over. Unlink sex -links autosexing breeds can be bred together and product more autosexing birds. There is not need to keep two separate breed to produce what you want.

As for crossing Buff NN to cream Lebars. It won't create autosexing. The autosexing achieved with the barring gene. This gene is located on the W chromosome. Males chickens have two W chromosomes and female chickens have one W chromosome and one X chromosome. The barring gene isn't carried on the X chromosome so barred hens carry one copy of the gene (from their father on the W chromosome) while getting no barring from their mother (even if their mother is barred because the mother only passes the X chromosome that doesn't carry Barring). Barred males on the other hand can have single factor barring if they only get barring from one parent or double factor barring if they get barring from both parents. The barring gene dilutes the red pigment that creates the drown color in chicks down. Black chicks like barred rocks are not autosexing because their is not red pigments to dilute to where there isn't enough distinction between the pullets and the cockerels to sort them with 100% accuracy. Yellow chick down is also not autosexing. Yellow is the absence of any red pigment in the chick down so again their isn't enough distinction between the males and the females. If you have a chipmonk pattern from the wild type color patter you how ever get cockerels that twice as much red diluted as the pullets and the difference is clear.

What primary color pattern are the Buff NN's based on? Wheaten? Others? I raised Euskal Oiloa (Basque Hens) for 5 years. They are a barred Wheaten Based breed. Some time we would get red enhanced chicks and there would be just enough red in the chick down to guess the sex on some of the chicks. We didn't have a pure breed line so we also would get some that were split for the columbian restrictor, some that were split for wild type plumage, and some that were split for the type of dilutors in the buff colors. If you line breed for specific down pattern that could see tells you make have an increased ability to sex day-old chicks, but I don't think you could ever achieve autosexing in a barred buff breed. You may want to look in to the Cuckoo Orpington, Maraduna Basque Hens, to see what those chicks look like. There are Rodebars and Hampbars that are autosexing. They are red's and black tails reds with barring. Looking at them may give you more clues as to what might be required. At any rate it would be a long breeding process that would require several years to see any results (and then the results may not be good).

 

[The Moonshiner]

@GaryDean26
Is there a place to read the opal legbar article without joining the legbar club?
The barring gene and as you explained it with the two copies vs one copy is really all that is needed for auto sexing.
@anyone that reads this
Yes the red pigment makes it easier and yes the wild type pattern is ideal but with the right breeding auto sexing can be done without red pigment or the wild type pattern.
Silver legbars are an example. They have no red pigment. The wild type pattern is diluted more in males so they can be sexed by that.
Rhodebars are Wheaton. They do have red pigment and it is more the dilution of the red pigment that makes them sex able.
So really the red pigment or the wild type pattern makes it possible.
But then you can go with neither. There are many barred rock breeders that can sex their chicks at hatch just by the head spots. They neither have red pigment or a chipmunk pattern to go by. Just the single vs double barring.
Many won't see barred rocks as auto sexing but many breeders would agree by definition that they are.

 

[BlueBaby]

I read an article in the Cream Legbar Club newsletter earlier this month on the Opal Legbar Project. The Author started by defining terms that are used in breeding projects. IT was one of the clearest explanations that I have seen. She said that in the Opal project it was very important to not confuse Sex-links with Auto-sexing. She explained that Sex-link are created by breeding two different breeds together. Because each of the foundation breeds are pure bred the out come is predictable and had a degree of uniformity in appearance. You how ever can not breed the Sex-links together and get more sexlinks. She started the Opal Legbars with a cross of Cream Legbars and Isabel Leghorns and said it was very important to keep good records because her goal at the end of the project was to have auto-sexing and if she made the wrong cross with the sex-link it would ruin the autosexing and with out know which birds were sex-links and which weren't it would be more work to get back to were she was than to start over. Unlink sex -links autosexing breeds can be bred together and product more autosexing birds. There is not need to keep two separate breed to produce what you want.

As for crossing Buff NN to cream Lebars. It won't create autosexing. The autosexing achieved with the barring gene. This gene is located on the W chromosome. Males chickens have two W chromosomes and female chickens have one W chromosome and one X chromosome. The barring gene isn't carried on the X chromosome so barred hens carry one copy of the gene (from their father on the W chromosome) while getting no barring from their mother (even if their mother is barred because the mother only passes the X chromosome that doesn't carry Barring). Barred males on the other hand can have single factor barring if they only get barring from one parent or double factor barring if they get barring from both parents. The barring gene dilutes the red pigment that creates the drown color in chicks down. Black chicks like barred rocks are not autosexing because their is not red pigments to dilute to where there isn't enough distinction between the pullets and the cockerels to sort them with 100% accuracy. Yellow chick down is also not autosexing. Yellow is the absence of any red pigment in the chick down so again their isn't enough distinction between the males and the females. If you have a chipmonk pattern from the wild type color patter you how ever get cockerels that twice as much red diluted as the pullets and the difference is clear.

What primary color pattern are the Buff NN's based on? Wheaten? Others? I raised Euskal Oiloa (Basque Hens) for 5 years. They are a barred Wheaten Based breed. Some time we would get red enhanced chicks and there would be just enough red in the chick down to guess the sex on some of the chicks. We didn't have a pure breed line so we also would get some that were split for the columbian restrictor, some that were split for wild type plumage, and some that were split for the type of dilutors in the buff colors. If you line breed for specific down pattern that could see tells you make have an increased ability to sex day-old chicks, but I don't think you could ever achieve autosexing in a barred buff breed. You may want to look in to the Cuckoo Orpington, Maraduna Basque Hens, to see what those chicks look like. There are Rodebars and Hampbars that are autosexing. They are red's and black tails reds with barring. Looking at them may give you more clues as to what might be required. At any rate it would be a long breeding process that would require several years to see any results (and then the results may not be good).

Ok, so I also have some chicks that I hatched out the end of Nov. Those chicks were a cross from a Blue Australorp rooster over a non-barred NN hen that was laying green eggs. There was 3 chicks with the Naked neck from the match, 2 blues and a black. I am growing those chicks out. Could I use them with a cross to a CCL to try to work towards an auto-sexting NN?

Edit: The hen used actutally looked a little partridge like in the feathering.

 

[The Moonshiner]

You need to know what genes your NNs are.
If you know what they are then you'll know what you have to work will and the best path to take.
One way or another you could get there. Knowing the genes would give you an idea of how many generation and how many hundreds of chicks it may take.
If all else with a few generations and enough chicks you could get the legbars pattern with a NN.

 

[BlueBaby]

Well, I noticed that most people are crossing the NN's and trying to make a bigger meat bird. I am more interested in trying to have a NN that will be more of just an egg layer that can also be auto-sexed. They say that the NN's will do well over here in our hot desert summers.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Cross your CCL rooster over whatever NN hens you have.
Keep all NN pullet chicks. All would be barred and all would carry one copy of the wild type pattern.
Breed another CCL rooster to those pullets. About half will have two copies of the wild type pattern. Half will have one gene for it and if your NNs are Wheaton which ive seen a ton that were. You would have to make sure you're keeping only pure for wild type and not wild type/ Wheaton. That may be easier said then done because wild type is dominate to Wheaton and may hid it completely.
Keep chicks that are NN, pure for wild type and barred.
All the chicks will be correct for barring. Pullets having one copy and cockerels having two.
Breed those pullets to those cockerels and you'll be set.
That's the easy version. Reality is going to be that your NNs are going to bring in other genes you don't want and don't need. Depending on how many other genes are play will determine how many chicks you'll need to hatch to get the barred/ wild type/ NNs without anything else included that will throw a wrench in the auto sexing.
Breeding the F1s to a CCL for the second generation will help tremendously in being able to get the genes you need and limit the unneeded ones and should bring in better egg laying.
That's just one option.

 

[BlueBaby]

Cross your CCL rooster over whatever NN hens you have.
Keep all NN pullet chicks. All would be barred and all would carry one copy of the wild type pattern.
Breed another CCL rooster to those pullets. About half will have two copies of the wild type pattern. Half will have one gene for it and if your NNs are Wheaton which ive seen a ton that were. You would have to make sure you're keeping only pure for wild type and not wild type/ Wheaton. That may be easier said then done because wild type is dominate to Wheaton and may hid it completely.
Keep chicks that are NN, pure for wild type and barred.
All the chicks will be correct for barring. Pullets having one copy and cockerels having two.
Breed those pullets to those cockerels and you'll be set.
That's the easy version. Reality is going to be that your NNs are going to bring in other genes you don't want and don't need. Depending on how many other genes are play will determine how many chicks you'll need to hatch to get the barred/ wild type/ NNs without anything else included that will throw a wrench in the auto sexing.
Breeding the F1s to a CCL for the second generation will help tremendously in being able to get the genes you need and limit the unneeded ones and should bring in better egg laying.
That's just one option.

Thank you! I figured if I mentioned my goal with them, that I might get a good answer.

 

[GaryDean26]

@GaryDean26
Is there a place to read the opal legbar article without joining the legbar club?
.

If you go to the Club website and click on the News tab on the top bar there is a Quarterly Newsletters option in the pull down menu. There are two newsletter from 2016 there now, but the latest New Letter that was completed a few weeks ago with the Opal Project should be added there in the coming weeks. Hopeful they 2017 issues will be added as well.

@GaryDean26

The barring gene and as you explained it with the two copies vs one copy is really all that is needed for auto sexing.
@anyone that reads this
Yes the red pigment makes it easier and yes the wild type pattern is ideal but with the right breeding auto sexing can be done without red pigment or the wild type pattern.

Well...I have never tinkered with auto-sexing in anything but the Cream Legbar so you may very well be right, but I know that Barred Plymouth Rocks are NOT auto-sexing and they have the barring gene. Some people were claiming that they were autosexing and so researchers put it to the test the none of these people claiming autosexing could get better than 85% accuracy (am most less than that). So...assuming they got half of the ones they weren't sure on right there were 30% of the plymouth rocks that were not marked well enough to sex. To meet the definition of autosexing you have to get 100% accuracy. One of the economic advantage that the researchers at the Cambridge University Breeding program sited for autosexing is that that with vent-sexing you got 95% pullets and 5% cockerels so you wasted gain on feeding 5% that would never produce a single egg.

I am guessing that Lemon Cuckoo Orpngtons are not going to get you 100% sexability either. I know for a fact that our Maraduna Euskal Oiloa we NOT autosexing. There was not way that they got to 85% accuracy on that yellow down and they were a barred breed.

@GaryDean26
Rhodebars are Wheaton.

How are you going to get a Buff NN if you introduce the mahogany gene, autosomal red, or some other red enhancer? Do you know of any buff barred breeds that are autosexing? I guessing it would take thousands of culls to develop and that you would have very poor quality buffs.

@GaryDean26
There are many barred rock breeders that can sex their chicks at hatch just by the head spots. They neither have red pigment or a chipmunk pattern to go by. Just the single vs double barring.
Many won't see barred rocks as auto sexing but many breeders would agree by definition that they are.

I don't believe the claim of PR's being autosexing. I saw a report of a study done by a research station that concluded that the best people were able to get at color sexing PR's was around 85% (some were 10-15% lower than that). You are better off vent-sexing with that accuracy.

I found these. They are Barred Buff Cochins.

And here are some of there offspring at day old.

Here is one of the above at 10 days old. Notice the barring on the wings, but there is no autosexing with this color pattern. No white head spots are visible on the chick down of buff chickens and the double factor barring doesn't show enough distinction in color from the single factor barring.