Making New Dog Breeds

[B. Saffles Farms]

Id like to know where these people that pay hundreds and even thousands of dollars for mixed up dogs, are when Im trying to get rid of one. Im not a breeder, Ive only got two dogs myself, a full blooded Aussie, that I bought and an Aussie/Heeler cross, that was given to my wife. We just had the Aussie/Heeler cross spayed because we didnt want any mixed puppys. Not there is anything wrong with them, I just prefer a full blooded dog.

 

[xke4]

I work the desk at our local vet clinic and a couple of months ago, a lady called asking to make an appt for her Grus......(long, unrecognizable name) puppy. I said "Sure, but if you don't mind me asking, what is a Grus.......?? (madly flipping thru the current dog breed book). "Oh" she said "it is a mix between a Maltese, a Schnauzer, a something and a something else. We drove all the way to Michigan (across the border, maybe a 6 hour drive) to get this dog. It is a new breed! It is really new and cost us $1500." I nearly shot my Diet Coke thru my nose! Try and get that puppy to breed true!!!!

 

[B. Saffles Farms]

LOL, I think they arent going to be many "purebred" dogs left before long.

 

[ninjapoodles]

The problem with these "designer dogs" is that the "breeders" behind them are just $$-struck opportunists. They're not interested in pedigree research, health testing, genetic testing, temperament issues, or anything, except cashing in on the latest fad and separating gullible folks from their money.

Straight-up fact: No "designer dog breeder" is going to be able to get ANY kind of decent, get-of-champions, health-tested stock, because NO conscientious breeder of the purebred parent breeds is going to let an intact dog go to someone like this. So right off the bat, those folks deliberately breeding mixes are starting with inferior stock.

Statement from the Labrador Retriever Club of America:

"The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc is dedicated to the health and welfare of the Labrador Retriever breed while conserving the original breed function - that of a "working retriever." A purebred dog offers to his owner the likelihood that he will be a specific size, shape, color and temperament. The predictability of a breed comes from selection for traits that are desirable and away from traits that are undesirable. When a breed standard or type is set, the animals within that breed have less heterozygosity than do animals in a random population.

A Labradoodle is nothing more than an expensive mongrel. Because the genetic makeup is diverse from the Poodle genes and the Labrador genes, the resultant first generation (F1) offspring is a complete genetic gamble. The dog may be any size, color, coat texture and temperament. Indeed Labradoodles do shed. Their coat may be wiry or silky and may mat. Body shape varies with parentage but tends to be lanky and narrow. Behavior varies with the dog and within a litter with some puppies poodle-like in attitude and others somewhat like the Labrador Retriever.

These crossbreds are a deliberate attempt to mislead the public with the idea that there is an advantage to these designer dogs. The crossbred dogs are prone to all of the genetic disease of both breeds and offer none of the advantages that owning a purebred dog has to offer."

Frances S. Smith DVM, Ph.D.
LRC, Inc. Board of Directors

Statement from Anne Rogers Clark:
By Anne Rogers Clark

Reprinted from The AKC Gazette

I have been involved with Poodles, all three varieties, throughout most of my life as my mother was one of several fanciers that owned and bred the breed when it first became popular.
In the ensuing years (more than sixty) I have enjoyed the breed as a challenge to breed and raise correctly, enjoyed the preparation and presentation of the breed as a breeder as well as a profession handler and have enjoyed the Standard Poodle as a hunting and retrieving wonder dog.
In all of these years I have seen many other breeds take the liberty of breeding to my breed- the Poodle. This has resulted in Peke-a-poos, Cocker-poos, Schnoodles (the Schnauzer cross), etc. These crosses made to incorporate the Poodle intelligence, spark and training ability into the other breeds.
None of these crosses have prospered except in the puppy mills and pet shops. No thought of creating a new exciting breed, until now. The emergence of the Labradoodle has swept through several countries, with possible thought of producing a new and registerable breed!
Billed as non-shedding, intelligent breed for all reasons, plus the hybrid vigor would supposedly stamp out the heritable diseases of both breeds.
Jump started in Australia as the perfect breed for the blind, a program was instituted and the results followed for a proper length of time, and has now been discontinued. The reasons: not all of the non-shedding promises held true. The animals produced were a little too full of themselves to be trust worthy guide dogs, plus the heritable disease of both breeds were very similar and were inherited into each new generation.
However the crossbreds continue to be bred in both Australia and the United States as they are very saleable and for huge prices. One and two thousand dollars per puppy is a very good price, particularly for a non-registerable mutt or mixed breed.
Where will this trend lead our breed? We must, in order to protect our breed from further exploitation sell pet puppies on a spay-neuter contract to stop them falling into the wrong hands. Do not ever allow your stud dog to be bred to a grump of another breed. If you are a member of a breed club, this could put you in line for charges being brought against you. Why? This is not responsible behavior if you are protecting the Poodle. It has now come to my attention that Golden Retrievers have joined the ranks with Labradors! Golden-doodles! Beware-

Statement from the Golden Retriever Club of America:

GOLDENDOODLES
Reprinted from www.grca.org Website of the Golden Retriever Club of America The AKC Parent Club of the Golden Retriever

The Golden Retriever Club of America is dedicated to the health and welfare of the Golden Retriever breed while conserving the original breed function - that of a "working retriever." A purebred dog offers to his owner the likelihood that he will be a specific size, shape, color and temperament.
The predictability of a breed comes from selection for traits that are desirable and away from traits that are undesirable. When a breed standard or type is set, the animals within that breed have less heterozygosity than do animals in a random population The Goldendoodle is nothing more than an expensive mongrel. Because the genetic makeup is diverse from the Poodle genes and the Golden Retriever genes, the resultant first generation (F1) offspring is a complete genetic gamble. The dog may be any size, color, coat texture and temperament. Indeed Goldendoodles do shed. Their coat may be wiry or silky and may mat. Body shape varies with parentage but tends to be lanky and narrow. Behavior varies with the dog and within a litter with some puppies poodle-like in attitude and others somewhat like the Golden Retriever.
The Golden Retriever Club of America is opposed to cross-breeding of dogs and is particularly opposed to the deliberate crossing of Golden Retrievers with any other breed. These crossbreds are a deliberate attempt to mislead the public with the idea that there is an advantage to these designer dogs. The crossbred dogs are prone to all of the genetic disease of both breeds and offer none of the advantages that owning a purebred dog has to offer.

Permission to amend the Labrador Retriver Club statement to Golden Retrievers given by:
Frances S. Smith DVM, Ph.D.
LRC, Inc. Board of Directors
Diplomate American College of Theriogenology Original Author of Labradoodle statement
Marianne Foote
Director, Labrador Retriever Club

From Poodle Review:

As I see it
by Joanne Reichertz DVM
Oodles of Poodle Crosses for Sale.
Can we prevent our Pet Puppies from
Being used to produce these Crossbreeds?

In virtually every newspaper classified section you can read, there are advertisements for Goldendoodles, Labradoodles, Cockapoos, Pekeapoos, Shihpoos, etc. In all the years I have bred poodles there have always been crossbreeds around. Most of these were accidents and the puppies were given away or sold for little more than the price of their care. Some Cockapoos were deliberately bred for Pet Shops, but the market was inconsistent, so they were not readily available. Labradors and Standard Poodles were also crossbred in Australia to produce a specific type of working dog. However in the previous few years the fad has been to produce crossbred poodles with many different breed and market them for considerable money as designer breeds that are healthier and otherwise better than a purebred. In most cases these puppies are produced for monetary gains not to develop a new breed!
The Goldendoodle is one of these crossbreds. Goldendoodles were deliberately bred in North America as a larger version of the Cockapoo, beginning around ten to fifteen years ago. Most do not shed hair heavily, and some are hypoallergenic like the Standard Poodle. This crossbred gets its name from the mix of the two breeds - Golden Retriever and Poodle. Goldendoodles are considered a hybrid dog, a first generation cross between two breeds, and as such they are supposed to exhibit a quality called "hybrid vigour" by these breeders. This hybrid vigour is more correctly called heterosis. Crossbreeding in commercial beef cattle production improves feed efficiency through heterosis. Hybrid vigor or heterosis is the added performance boost in crossbred calves over the performance average of their purebred parents. This heterosis can be used to advantage where the end product is meant to grow faster and eat less feed while doing so thus maximizing the farmer’s profit. It is not necessarily useful in breeding dogs. In theory the puppies will take on the best traits of both breeds. In reality, this is often false.
True hybrids are the product of breeding two different species. Breeding a donkey and a horse produces a mule, breeding a lion and a tiger produces a liger or a tigon, while breeding a wolf and a domestic dog produces a wolf hybrid. Each of these hybrid breedings is a cross of two different species. The offspring are hybrids. Domestic dogs are the same species. When you cross breed domestic dogs you are not technically creating a hybrid. Wolf/dog hybrids often have behavioral problems as the domestic dog differs greatly in behavior from a wolf. A wolf/dog hybrid can be a behavioural disaster when they mature. (See Canine Hybrid Issues Surrounding the Wolf Dog , M. Sloan, J. Moore Porter, 2001)
A breed of dog is not a separate species, it is just a family of dogs bred to exhibit certain specific traits like the coat of a poodle. When you breed a litter of purebred dogs you get predictable puppies. With crossbred puppies you do not. It takes many generations to fix traits when developing a new breed. For example after a hundred years of breeding the Toy Poodle we still get the problems of oversized individuals, long backs/short legs and soft coats (particularly in white) all leftovers from the breeds originally used to produce the Toy Poodle.
Crossbred dogs such as the Goldendoodle or Cockapoo are NOT hybrids nor are they a breed. Cockapoos may look like a Poodle, a Cocker or somewhere in between. A Cockapoo bred to a Cockapoo is not a breed. It takes decades or more to get a new breed to breed true without throwbacks occurring. People backcrossing Goldendoodles to Standard Poodles or crossing them on each other cannot predict the looks, coat and personalities of the resulting offspring. It will take many more generations before this will be possible. In addition when they breed them to each other they lose they slight health advantage which may have been gained through heterosis. These are still dogs and now we will have dogs with the health problems of both breeds. Hip dysplasia, being present in both breeds can show up in first generation Goldendoodles, so parents should be screened.
How do you prevent a puppy you sell from being used to produce crossbreds? Unless you spay and neuter them first, it is impossible to be 100% sure. In addition, we have all sold as pets dogs who later became show and breeding dogs, as many puppies grow up better than they appear to be at eight weeks of age. A good pet contract which states that there is a penalty for using the dogs to produce crossbreds is the best that we can do. The non-breeding contracts provided by the AKC or CKC are not applicable in these situations as registration papers are not important when crossbred puppies are produced. Withholding papers from new owners until a certificate of spay or neuter is provided also does not work. The best method seems to be careful interviewing of new puppy owners and the use of a strong contract prohibiting breeding of the pet puppy. However you must be prepared to follow the contract up with legal action if it is contravened.
In conclusion, while I know it is possible to develop a new breed such as the Goldendoodle, with careful selective breeding practices and health testing, many people are breeding these dogs simply for monetary reasons. They often have no regard for the health and wellbeing of the puppy produced and as a result these breeds are becoming a common commodity in animal shelters as well as in newspaper classified advertisements.

I have nothing against mixed-breed dogs--it's not the DOGS who are the problem. But people "creating new breeds" in their backyard, or just cashing in on an ill-informed fad at the expense of the dogs really angries up my blood.

That said, I can understand situations in which a dog or family of dogs excels at highly specialized work, and mixed-breeds are deliberately (and thoughtfully) bred to fill that need. These situations are exceedingly rare.​

 

[B. Saffles Farms]

Well said Ninjapoodles

 

[skirbo]

Quote:
Ditto. Thanks for saying it!

Sarah

 

[SilkieChick00]

Quote:
The last thing I heard was the AKC was limiting breeders to 7 litters per year. If they had over that amount then the puppies wouldn't be able to be registered AKC. Which shouldn't be a problem for ethnical breeders anyway. Breeding takes so much time, effort and money that I couldn't see breeding over 7 litters in a year!

 

[kdcrws]

I have a Goldendoodle who is 5 1/2 month old. I happen to like mutts. She is extra smart and doesn't shed. She will also be a lot less likely to develop health problems like pure/inbred dogs do. we wanted a dog that was sure to be highly trainable and love kids and that didn't shed and she fit the bill. We also have a mini jack (a jrt X min pin). She is spayed and he will be neutered before 6 months (he's 9 wks now), it's the responsible thing to do. To each his own....

Cookie and the kids

Domino age 7wks

 

[joshplus10]

Quote:

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

 

[mtnhomechick]

I have a designer dog........if that's what she's called, we just think of her as a FAMILY DOG. A great big Apricot Labradoodle. We not only paid a lot of money for her, we then flew her from Boise to Milwaukee. Just in time for my husbands Christmas present from me 3 years ago........he says it's the best dog he's ever had. And the best gift I ever gave him.......even though she's OUR dog now.

Seems there's a lot of opinions on here from people who never tried it. Most people who have tried them.........love them.

Breeding Labradoodles and Goldendoodles is no mistake. They were bred starting in the 70's in Australia because of their high intelligence and gentleness.....they make excellent therapy dogs for disabled people with allergies. My dog doesn't shed and could very easily have been trained in that respect.

To each his own is right but how can one say if they've never tried it.

It's the best money we ever parted with.