Many late deaths - What am I doing wrong?

[LikeTurkeys]

Hello!
This is an issue I've been having the last couple times I've incubated. Let's start with my most recent hatch: I began with 50 eggs. Of those, 3 died early on. But out of the 47 that were developing, 11 died in shell between days 17 and 21.

Many of the chicks had not even internally pipped. Some had absorbed their yolk sac fully, others had not. Many had slight veining. Only one egg had internally pipped (but not externally), and even that one died. Out of the eleven deaths, only two I can explain, a seriously deformed chick (the brain had not been enclosed in the skull, the eyes did not develop and the chick was malpositioned), and a chick which I believe hit a vein while internally pipping. (The latter had blood on the beak, an image is attached). The rest remain a mystery.

I tried to keep the humidity for the first 18 days around 35%. During lockdown, I raised it to 65%. I estimated my temperature was about a degree too high (100.5), during incubation, because all of the chicks that hatched did so on day 20. (My incubator was set to 98.5, after purchasing a Brinsea Spot check thermometer, I realize it was running about 2 degrees too high. So 98.5 = 100.5). I also always thoroughly washed my hands before candling the eggs and kept the incubator as clean an environment as possible.

The incubator I am using is a Hovabator Genesis 1588 with a Incuturn turner (so the eggs were being turned on their sides). Attached are some photos of the dead chicks. The first and third ones appear to be more behind (you can see that there is more liquid inside the membrane and the yolk sac has not fully been absorbed). The last is of the chick that internally pipped but did not hatch.

This problem also occurred in the hatch before this, where I lost 5 chicks late into in incubation out of 20 developing eggs. I really appreciate any help and feedback.

 

[Hei 20]

Hello!
This is an issue I've been having the last couple times I've incubated. Let's start with my most recent hatch: I began with 50 eggs. Of those, 3 died early on. But out of the 47 that were developing, 11 died in shell between days 17 and 21.

Many of the chicks had not even internally pipped. Some had absorbed their yolk sac fully, others had not. Many had slight veining. Only one egg had internally pipped (but not externally), and even that one died. Out of the eleven deaths, only two I can explain, a seriously deformed chick (the brain had not been enclosed in the skull, the eyes did not develop and the chick was malpositioned), and a chick which I believe hit a vein while internally pipping. (The latter had blood on the beak, an image is attached). The rest remain a mystery.

I tried to keep the humidity for the first 18 days around 35%. During lockdown, I raised it to 65%. I estimated my temperature was about a degree too high (100.5), during incubation, because all of the chicks that hatched did so on day 20. (My incubator was set to 98.5, after purchasing a Brinsea Spot check thermometer, I realize it was running about 2 degrees too high. So 98.5 = 100.5). I also always thoroughly washed my hands before candling the eggs and kept the incubator as clean an environment as possible.

The incubator I am using is a Hovabator Genesis 1588 with a Incuturn turner (so the eggs were being turned on their sides). Attached are some photos of the dead chicks. The first and third ones appear to be more behind (you can see that there is more liquid inside the membrane and the yolk sac has not fully been absorbed). The last is of the chick that internally pipped but did not hatch.

This problem also occurred in the hatch before this, where I lost 5 chicks late into in incubation out of 20 developing eggs. I really appreciate any help and feedback.

I am sorry for your loss. I know the feeling.
I tried hatching 4 eggs and only one made it.

 

[LikeTurkeys]

I am sorry for your loss. I know the feeling.
I tried hatching 4 eggs and only one made it.

I am sorry to hear that. Maybe you will have better success in the future. Yes, it is both sad and disappointing. Especially since they were so close!

 

[Trisseh]

Were these your own eggs? Locally picked up? Or shipped?
Did you calibrate your additional thermometer when you got it, to make sure it was accurate?
Sustained higher than normal temps can kill some but not all.
also wondering about ventilation. Closer to hatch the oxygen requirements increase; I’m not sure how that model is set up for ventilation. Does it have a fan?
does this unit have a built in hygrometer or do you have a secondary one? (And is it calibrated?)

Sorry you had so many DIS the last couple of go-rounds. It sucks to lose any, let alone a larger percentage.

 

[LikeTurkeys]

Yes, these were my own eggs. As I said, they had a very high fertility rate, in fact only one was truly infertile (and it was a pullet egg that shouldn't have been set anyway). They were mostly all under 7 days old, the oldest was 8 days and it hatched normally.

No, I did not calibrate the new thermometer, because I figured it was accurate since it is specially meant for incubators and has a very narrow range (92-104 I believe). Also, since my eggs hatched a day early and it read 100.5 - 101 consistently (also backed up by an additional non-built in thermometer), I have reason to believe it's accurate. The incubator has little holes on the bottom for ventilation during the first 18 days, and a red plug on the top that is opened during lockdown. I've attached an image.

Yes, the incubator is forced air. And it does have a built in hygrometer, but I also used a secondary one that I calibrated using the salt test. Hopefully that answers your questions, and I hope this wasn't too long of a post.

 

[Trisseh]

Yes, these were my own eggs. As I said, they had a very high fertility rate, in fact only one was truly infertile (and it was a pullet egg that shouldn't have been set anyway). They were mostly all under 7 days old, the oldest was 8 days and it hatched normally.

No, I did not calibrate the new thermometer, because I figured it was accurate since it is specially meant for incubators and has a very narrow range (92-104 I believe). Also, since my eggs hatched a day early and it read 100.5 - 101 consistently (also backed up by an additional non-built in thermometer), I have reason to believe it's accurate. The incubator has little holes on the bottom for ventilation during the first 18 days, and a red plug on the top that is opened during lockdown. I've attached an image.

Yes, the incubator is forced air. And it does have a built in hygrometer, but I also used a secondary one that I calibrated using the salt test. Hopefully that answers your questions, and I hope this wasn't too long of a post.

Not too long a post at all, it’s good to touch on everything, that’s how we troubleshoot! Shipped eggs have a much different hatch rate than local, and definitely from your own, which is why I was asking.
And just to confirm, this is the incubator you’ve been using with prior hatches with no issues?

Never trust a thermometer out of the box. always calibrate your equipment to minimize problems. With that said, I would be interested to see if you have hot/cold spots throughout the incubator. Would be something interesting to test even with no eggs in it.

The humidity doesn’t sound like it was a problem unless you find that you have a lot of eggs with excessive fluid inside when you open them. It didn’t appear to be the case in your photos but you would know when you opened them.

You can also have issues if the breeder flock has nutritional deficiencies or other problems as well. Did you recently switch feed brands/types/etc? In some areas the season can have an effect as well.

 

[mcdze]

i can add on top of verifying temps, that in my own opinion alot of that type of thing is related to how the eggs are handled, it needs to be gentle, if your storing eggs several days to collect a batch they need to be temp controlled, imo lower is better than higher and they need to be turned even before they go into the bator .. if they start to develop 'or' if your temps are alittle higher and they are further along than you figured, theyre getting moved and turned too late when they should really be in lockdown .. i think sometimes that situation gets them tied up in a knot in the shell and they dont pip or other problems .. anyway .. this is all 'hypothesis' .. take every precaution i can to give them the best chance is way i see it ..

 

[LikeTurkeys]

Not too long a post at all, it’s good to touch on everything, that’s how we troubleshoot! Shipped eggs have a much different hatch rate than local, and definitely from your own, which is why I was asking.
And just to confirm, this is the incubator you’ve been using with prior hatches with no issues?

Never trust a thermometer out of the box. always calibrate your equipment to minimize problems. With that said, I would be interested to see if you have hot/cold spots throughout the incubator. Would be something interesting to test even with no eggs in it.

The humidity doesn’t sound like it was a problem unless you find that you have a lot of eggs with excessive fluid inside when you open them. It didn’t appear to be the case in your photos but you would know when you opened them.

You can also have issues if the breeder flock has nutritional deficiencies or other problems as well. Did you recently switch feed brands/types/etc? In some areas the season can have an effect as well.

This is only my second time using the incubator, and both times I had late deaths. I know about calibration, but how would you do it on a thermometer with such a narrow range? You can't use the freezing or boiling water test (nor do I think those would be very accurate anyway). My new thermometer was a spot check, and I checked all areas of the incubator. I couldn't find any significant hot/cold spots, but just in case I changed the position of all the eggs every once in a while.

I agree with you, I don’t think the humidity was too high. There was fluid in a couple of eggs, but I think it was a normal amount. You make a good point about my breeder flock. While I didn’t switch feeds or anything like that (no excessive stress), I did notice that a disproportionate number of deaths came from the same one or two hens. Namely, one of my Easter Eggers and my Blue Laced Red Wyandotte. Of the 7 eggs I set from the EE, only 2 hatched and one of those was malpositioned. (Of the ones that didn’t, two died early on and 3 late in shell). Likewise with the BLRW, only 3 hatched I believe out of 6 or 7 eggs. The rest died in shell. (Ironically, of those that did hatch from her, one was 8 days old and malpositioned). So, of their eggs up to 50% died. That still only accounts for half of the deaths, the others came from different hens, I think somewhere around 1 or 2 per each of the other hens. And some hens did not have any deaths at all, like my DOM x EE cross which had all 7 of her eggs hatch.

 

[LikeTurkeys]

i can add on top of verifying temps, that in my own opinion alot of that type of thing is related to how the eggs are handled, it needs to be gentle, if your storing eggs several days to collect a batch they need to be temp controlled, imo lower is better than higher and they need to be turned even before they go into the bator .. if they start to develop 'or' if your temps are alittle higher and they are further along than you figured, theyre getting moved and turned too late when they should really be in lockdown .. i think sometimes that situation gets them tied up in a knot in the shell and they dont pip or other problems .. anyway .. this is all 'hypothesis' .. take every precaution i can to give them the best chance is way i see it ..

I stored my eggs before incubating on a 45 degree angle and turned them at least 3 times a day. The temperature during storing was mostly 60-70 degrees, probably not more than 75 for sure. While it could have been lower, I don’t think it should’ve made that big of a difference, and usually eggs that start partially developing before incubation die early on. You could have a point there about too much turning close to hatch, though I should think just a day’s difference shouldn’t have caused such a great effect. And I did have 2 or 3 malpositions, but only one of those didn’t hatch (and it was the deformed chick I mentioned earlier). The other DIS were normally positioned.

 

[Trisseh]

This is only my second time using the incubator, and both times I had late deaths. I know about calibration, but how would you do it on a thermometer with such a narrow range? You can't use the freezing or boiling water test (nor do I think those would be very accurate anyway). My new thermometer was a spot check, and I checked all areas of the incubator. I couldn't find any significant hot/cold spots, but just in case I changed the position of all the eggs every once in a while.

I agree with you, I don’t think the humidity was too high. There was fluid in a couple of eggs, but I think it was a normal amount. You make a good point about my breeder flock. While I didn’t switch feeds or anything like that (no excessive stress), I did notice that a disproportionate number of deaths came from the same one or two hens. Namely, one of my Easter Eggers and my Blue Laced Red Wyandotte. Of the 7 eggs I set from the EE, only 2 hatched and one of those was malpositioned. (Of the ones that didn’t, two died early on and 3 late in shell). Likewise with the BLRW, only 3 hatched I believe out of 6 or 7 eggs. The rest died in shell. (Ironically, of those that did hatch from her, one was 8 days old and malpositioned). So, of their eggs up to 50% died. That still only accounts for half of the deaths, the others came from different hens, I think somewhere around 1 or 2 per each of the other hens. And some hens did not have any deaths at all, like my DOM x EE cross which had all 7 of her eggs hatch.

So maybe the best thing to do to get this particular incubators issues ironed out would be to hatch a few less eggs and change up your settings and see. We know the temp was too high with the early hatchers but I would still be concerned with it being still too high and causing deaths. I lost half the batch of quail eggs (at lockdown) to a temp issue when I was using my newest incubator only to find with a THIRD thermometer that it was way too hot.

not sure what your thermometer is like; I don’t like the ones that I can’t fuss with somewhat. Lol. I use the probe type meant for reptiles. They’re cheap enough you can put a few of them in there and have a relatively accurate average in there. I use the ice water test with those and it seems to work fine. Do you have a known accurate thermometer you can compare it to?

you would have taken care of variables by rotating the eggs through the incubator so I doubt that’s the issue.

I guess the next question is the age of your breeders. Older hens and roosters have been known to throw more problem eggs/chicks or have decreased fertility so something like that may be possible if they’re older. I forget the actual percentage numbers for different ages, but as same as any other species, the older they are, the higher the chances of problems. It wouldn’t be uncommon for one or two eggs from any given hen to not hatch, especially in not “ideal” incubation conditions, but definitely interesting that there were so many from those few ladies.

I don’t know that the later stage turning would have caused late deaths with chicks not even internally pipping. There’s been plenty of people that have had chicks hatch early in the turner with no assistance at all.