Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[snowbird]

Ray from PA, BarNgodess (thanks for the hand slap, Don

), Don -

Ray, I'm really happy that you brought this up again.

Barb/Don - I really REALLY would like to get to the bottom of the whole white feather thing. I hear one thing from folks who have been breeding Marans for many years, see mature birds with white feathers in tails/wings/hackles being placed, and hear that Walt has communicated something slightly different to Don privately...which is it?

I view the whole white feather issue as an issue that seems to sort of be being swept under the carpet. Why? Is it super difficult to breed out? In the shows I attended this year, I looked at many black-based chickens in different breeds, and saw much of the same issue. Maybe this is just a "black-based chicken thing"? Is that possible?

Am I putting too much thought into this, is it something no one else worries about? I am seeing more and more of it, and maybe I am needlessly worried about it. Thoughts?

Wynette, Recently on the MCCusa forum Bev Davis repeated that she had talked to Walt in California and he had told her What I stated earlier. Last year after the stephenson, Wa. show Walt got the official Word from the Full committee and brought it back to the BYC forum , I do not remember which thread it was but might of been the Wheaten thread.

Now there are judges that have never seen a Marans judging them and that is where the problem comes into play. Part of the problem at Columbus was that one of the MCCusa officials was interrupting the judging with what she though should be placed. A reminder to all please do not interrupt the judge while judging is going on, wait until after and see if they will talk to you, There is no requirement that a judge must speak to anyone.

edited to ad: The white feathers can be eliminated in two generations if someone wants to work within a line. If you want to bring in new Marans they will have to be test mated.

 

[Wynette]

Wynette, Recently on the MOAC forum Bev Davis repeated that she had talked to Walt in California and he had told her What I stated earlier. Last year after the stephenson, Wa. show Walt got the official Word from the Full committee and brought it back to the BYC forum , I do not remember which thread it was but might of been the Wheaten thread.

Now there are judges that have never seen a Marans judging them and that is where the problem comes into play. Part of the problem at Columbus was that one of the MOAC officials was interrupting the judging with what she though should be placed. A reminder to all please do not interrupt the judge while judging is going on, wait until after and see if they will talk to you, There is no requirement that a judge must speak to anyone.

edited to ad: The white feathers can be eliminated in two generations if someone wants to work within a line. If you want to bring in new Marans they will have to be test mated.

Don, MOAC is not the organization that wrote the SOP - that's a completely different organization. It's MCCUSA (Marans Chicken Club USA - www.marans.org) that was the organization who go them introduced into the APA (for clarification purposes).

Also, the judge who judged them in Columbus was the same judge that was pushing to NOT have them accepted last year - if the white feathers are a DQ, wouldn't he have jumped on that bandwagon & DQ'd as many as he could? This is why it's all so confusing to me. I'm NOT arguing with you, Don, I'm trying to get to the bottom of the whole white feather issue. Here are my questions:

1. Are white tail feathers and white wing feathers acceptable in Black Copper variety? DQ, fault, neither? (Walt?)

2. Am I being overly critical? Should we be worried about this? As indicated earlier, I saw SEVERAL black-based (but with color, like the Black Copper) breeds other than Marans that seemed to have the same issue (NONE were DQ'd). Maybe it's just a "thing" with black based varieties? (Walt?)

3. Genetically - are the white fail & wing feathers related to the white underhackle? I have not seen one without the other. Barb has e-mailed a genetics expert overseas - I'll be anxiously awaiting the reply there. I also know that Roger Woo, also a genetics expert, has been researchign this and said he'd get back with me. Any other genetics folks out there wish to respond? That'd be great, if so!! (genetics folks)

 

[Debbi]

Don, I'd be interested to know why it seems that only the males, for the most part, are affected by the white feathers? I have 5 BCM hens, none of which have one white feather, nor gray or white underfluff. That said, only one of them shows any copper, and her's is very minimal. One is a sister to Clyde and Roy, and two are Clyde daughters. I have yet to hatch a Clyde son from these hens, and I will be curious to see what color their undercoat will be, and if there are any white feathers, come springtime when I start up hatching again. I seem to have gotten rid of my comb problems, knock wood, size and type is good, eye color good except for two that could be lighter, and shank/toe feathering has vastly improved. So this year, it is onto the color problems here! I need COLOR!!! Just not white...

 

[Debbi]

Wynette,

The birds you saw at the shows with the white; were they just roos or hens too?

 

[maryhysong]

Wynette,

The birds you saw at the shows with the white; were they just roos or hens too?

I'd also wonder what age they were? Since there is so much talk about letting them go older before selecting for breeding?

 

[Wynette]

Don, I'd be interested to know why it seems that only the males, for the most part, are affected by the white feathers? I have 5 BCM hens, none of which have one white feather, nor gray or white underfluff. That said, only one of them shows any copper, and her's is very minimal. One is a sister to Clyde and Roy, and two are Clyde daughters. I have yet to hatch a Clyde son from these hens, and I will be curious to see what color their undercoat will be, and if there are any white feathers, come springtime when I start up hatching again. I seem to have gotten rid of my comb problems, knock wood, size and type is good, eye color good except for two that could be lighter, and shank/toe feathering has vastly improved. So this year, it is onto the color problems here! I need COLOR!!! Just not white...

I wonder if melanizers cover up the white? Not saying they have any, it just occurred to me when I read the underlined part of your post.

Wynette,

The birds you saw at the shows with the white; were they just roos or hens too?

To be honest, I really focused mostly on the males. I have not seen any females in person that had the white underfluff (and I have seen, in person, at least 12 breeders' birds), however, I have seen a white TIP on a wing feather on a female. My very best female (type wise) has a white tip on the end of one of her wing primaries. She'll be 6 next spring. Don was at the show also - Don, did you notice any females with the white feathers?

 

[Wynette]

I'd also wonder what age they were? Since there is so much talk about letting them go older before selecting for breeding?

The males that I saw with the white tail feathers were all mature - as in, over a year. Cock birds.

I my own personal experience, they (males) can look fabulous in every way and then hit the first adult molt, and some moths after, that is when I would notice a feather turning white. AFTER molt, but not until then.

ETA - they don't seem to GROW IN white, they begin TURNING white at the base and slowly turn white all the way up.

 

[math ace]

ok, I've gotta ask, who all is done with culling and sorting out breeding pens for winter heading into breeding season?

I'm not, but am working on it as much as possible while I'm working on winterizing the rest of the coops and the barn. I'm feeling a bit nervous , but just keep plugging away. I'm also going to candle those eggs I was given to try and hatch from the show next tuesday or wednesday and hope to see lots of them developing!

I am all over this one!
I didn't hatch any last winter because we were so unseasonably cold the winter before. OUCH.... I was kicking myself all last winter because it was unseasonably warm....
So... I flipped the coin 3 weeks ago and hatching this winter won! I've got eggs in the incubator now that are on day 18. I've got eggs in the other incubator that are on day 8 and I am collecting eggs for the third incubator. My marans are just NOW, this week, starting to lay again. I am going to be setting up the breeding pens for them this weekend.

Look out BYC - math ace is going to have chicks on the ground this winter!

If my luck holds up, I will have a ton of cockerels running around soon and almost no Pullets !

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Wynette,

The birds you saw at the shows with the white; were they just roos or hens too?

It was just the boys - and it IS a big problem! In the Black Coppers and the Blue Coppers. (Might be white showing in the shank feathers on the female but on a VERY limited basis.)

Don, I'm curious - if I have a very nice black copper boy out of a blue/black copper breeding that is not showing any white feathers (Blue Copper daddy is white feather free in his third year), might you attempt introducing him into a Black Copper pen just to see if that white feather could be eliminated? (This black son is VERY young yet so there is still plenty of time for the white to develop, and all sorts of other nonsense, as I've learned, but I'm curious because I'm having SUCH a tough time finding Black Coppers free of those white feathers even from those who know what they are doing.)

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Quote:
Absolutely been my experience as well. They get scary white as they age! (Old dog syndrome, I call it ...

)