Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[RangeChicks]

Well you got hosed. Welcome to the club. I tried 5 times to get started in Salmon Marans and failed. Now I am happy with my Sussex. That breeder knew better. My biggest problem as breeders whi didn't know what they were doing. There are 3 closed flocks of quality GSM I know of. Arla Meininger in Michigan; Marie Cantrell in Montana and Bev Davis in FL. Maybe you will have the success which eluded me in getting them to share.
Golden Salmon Marans are simple e+/e+ with the gold gene. Nothing else. Any other gene or modifier added to that formula corrupts Golden Salmon and GS vanishes. So how could a salmon crossed to a cuckoo possibly be a Golden Salmon? You should ask for you money back and an apology. Golden Salmon Marans chick down is absolutely definitive for the color. If it doesn't look exactly, exactly like that classic down, you have other genes at work and don't have Golden Salmon ( same as Black Breasted Red) Marans. ( see the chick down for Old English Game Bantams chicks on the Net for an example) These birds obviously have the cuckoo gene. I would be angry if I were you. They are worthless for breeding any kind of Salmon Marans.
And saying they were bred to a golden cuckoo doesn't help the breeders defense at all. Golden Cuckoo is rarely bred on the proper e+ allele in America. That majority of the time it is bred on the eWh ( Wheaten) allele. And saying the roo was Golden Salmon doesn't prove anything unless the roo has previously sired pure Salmon from a pure Salmon hen. ( which hens are as rare as hen's teeth).
I owned a stunning Golden Salmon-colored cock named Alvin. He was perfect Golden Salmon coloring but genetically, he was eb/e+ as seen by the eb brown helmet in his chick down pics. Here he is:
http://waterfordsussexandmarans.webs.com/apps/photos/ You can use the buttons to make the pics full screen for better viewing. To my knowledge this is the only close-up photo essay of a properly "Golden Salmon-colored" cock on the net. Also click on "genetic literature" for more lit on breeding this color.
Below: this is Alvin on the left. Note the eb brown helmet. A proper salmon chick will have an "arrow" marking coming up the back of their neck and across the top of the skull. The other chick ( from what I can discern on the Net) is a "white pearl" and came from the same salmon hatch as Alvin. ( which was a Golden Duckwing cock over a Golden Salmon hen) So much for salmon color purity!

Look at the URL below to see what Golden Salmon ( BBR) chicks are supposed to look like:
http://emsquaredfarms.weebly.com/bb-red-chickies.html
Also please note, Gold Duckwing and Golden Duckwing are not Golden Salmon Marans. The GSM name is a Gold Red Duckwing.
Or "The Black Breasted Red cock with the salmon breasted, stippled hen". Or "wildtype". Black Breasted Red isn't a mutation you can "find". It is not a color you can "balance" into creation. BBR is the "basic" color of chickens. You need to winnow out all the other genes and modifiers until BBR is all you have left. To do that, you need one parent who is pure BBR. Best if it is a hen because they do not hide corrupting colors. A cock will do, but, but... cocks hide different allele combination and off coloring genes in their dark color palette. You want to make your your BBR cock came from a pure hen at the very least. And even that is a dicey choice. Best if from a sire who came from a pure hen and pure cock.
Start studying chick down. Know it intimately. Don't buy eggs. Pay for chicks in down ( get pics first) . Once they start to get feathers, knowing what there gets dicey until they are more feathered. Or buy started birds which are fully feathered so you can see what you are getting. You also want pics of parents. Just don't buy eggs or chicks in intermediate stages of feathering.
beware of the grown GS hen with a "darker" salmon breast. That is a mark of autosomal red gene which will quickly pollute your GS and really mess up a breeding project.

Best Regards,
Karen
former Director of Archives Marans of America Club

Thank you Karen for the detailed answer. I am going to see if I can return them. I talked to the gal I purchased them from & she's convinced they are perfect for a starter breeding program. She is considering letting us return them. We did pay a "premium" for them, so we will see what happens. Time for more self-education! Thanks again.

 

[3riverschick]

Well if she is that deluded take the money and run. I have lost count of the people trying to breed Salmon Marans who just don't understand the color at all. They (not you) they seem to believe it is a color they can create? It's not. It is the absence of all the other color genes and modifiers except gold. Sigh. One can't create it because the other color genes need to be winnowed out to get there. I mean if parents have color genes and they are mated together, how does that winnow out anything? If both parents are 1/2 pure the breeder has a chance to make it work. If you had parents which were 1/2 BBR and 1/2 eWh ( Wheaten Marans) you could make it work if you got real good at culling chick down. That's how Bev Davis progressed. Eventually, if you cull wisely, you should end up with a pure GSM of one sex or another. . Once you have that, you can breed it to a 1/2 BBR and 1/2 eWh and in several generations you should have pure BBR ( GSM) .
I wouldn't try it with any other color because all the other colors that are possibilities carry too many other color genes and modifiers. Along the way you might end up with some lovely Black Tailed Buff Marans. There is an uneasy genetic affinity between BTB, Wheaten and GS Marans. It's an interesting "family" of colors to study. It's the chick down that will get you there. Absolutely got to be perfect GSM down. Study the perfect chick down for BTB and Wheaten. Look at pics of combinations of these alleles and memorize them. That way when you look at your progressing chicks you will be able to cull wisely. Be encyclopedic about proper chicks down for eWh/eWh ; e+/e+ ; BTB, and combinations of these three colors and alleles. Also study and memorize what autosomal red and melanizing genes can do to down and juvenile feathering. Some color problems which exist don't manifest in the chick down, you have to wait until the birds get a full coat of juvenile feathers. Your keys to success will be knowing chick down and juvenile feathering...foundation stock which is at least 1/2 GSM and 1/2 Wheaten.getting a pure GSM female, she is the key...
Beware of the darker salmon breast in a GSM female. It is not a mark of greater purity. It is a mark of autosomal red. One of the banes of GSM breeders. Just because there are chipmunk stripes means nothing. They need to be exactly right. Look at Alvin's chipmunk markings. They looked good to me, But I learned better. Wider, narrower, whiter white, darker brown , lighter brown. They all mean something...usually that something is amiss. Zig zag in the arrow on the head? Something amiss. The arrow must be correct. I have seen folk tout a stripe of marbled down as a correct arrow. Not happening. The eye stripe may vary a very tiny bit. But be wary of that too. The legs may be hatched yellow but they will turn white as the chick ages. Don't worry about feathered feet, they can be added in later if you can't find feathered stock. In breeding this GSM, there are 2 things which don't lie. A properly colored female and a properly colored chick in down.
Best,
Karen

 

[LAChick]

Karen, thank you, for the thorough details in explaining the color gene in the Salmon Marans breed!

 

[3riverschick]

More than welcome. Also check out the BYC "Golden Salmon Marans" thread where we just finished a discussion very similar to this.
One other thing. It's a big help to know the hen is stippled. There are minor breeding laws governing breeding stippled fowl. The book below is just wonderful.
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. ... c.1. Card, Wetherell Henry.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
The author was a well respected breeder here in America. Note these are Laws. Not opinions or theories. I love this pithy little book and go back to it often when I have color questions. Judge Card was noted for his ability to make complex things simple. He could often be found at poultry shows informally lecturing to other poultry folk.

Best Success!
Karen

 

[konachicks]

I need opinions. I'm getting two week old Marans chicks. I'd wanted two blue but they also have black. Should I get one of each or both blue. I'm new to the breed, I will be buying them for our small flock of mixed breed pullets. No future breeding etc. just loved and spoiled egg laying pets

 

[biologynerd]

I need opinions. I'm getting two week old Marans chicks. I'd wanted two blue but they also have black. Should I get one of each or both blue. I'm new to the breed, I will be buying them for our small flock of mixed breed pullets. No future breeding etc. just loved and spoiled egg laying pets

I have both and I like the blue better although you can't show them and it be a recognized color sometimes.
Blue x blue can give u 25% splash as well as blue and black, that's why I like them too.
Here's a pic.

black pullet

blue

 

[konachicks]

Also, they are straight run. Is there any way to tell at two weeks between sexes? I'm pretty sure there isn't but am hopeful I'll get atleast one pullet

 

[OneMountainAcres]

Also, they are straight run. Is there any way to tell at two weeks between sexes? I'm pretty sure there isn't but am hopeful I'll get atleast one pullet

there really isn't but to take a good guess, look for the smallest combs lol

 

[Ihilani Coffee]

Also, they are straight run. Is there any way to tell at two weeks between sexes? I'm pretty sure there isn't but am hopeful I'll get atleast one pullet

You will likely get darker eggs from the black. Some of our chicks show sexing strongly at one week, so as everyone says, pick the smallest combs. Are these hatchery birds? It will be a couple of years but I'll be bringing some quality Marans genetics to the big island (Puna) when we move there.

 

[ladycat]

You will likely get darker eggs from the black. Some of our chicks show sexing strongly at one week, so as everyone says, pick the smallest combs. Are these hatchery birds? It will be a couple of years but I'll be bringing some quality Marans genetics to the big island (Puna) when we move there.

Don't they need to be quarantined when you get there?