Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Ok - - snowbird, this is what I had understood before. So, I was not planning on breeding my mossy girls. THEN, I read and must of misunderstood the following :

Quote:
Geebs, my girls are 9 months old. . . . I got them as chicks around christmas 2009. 3 blue copper marans. . . . One with a couple of white springs on her head and light blue coloring (just sorry as they come . . . .). The second and third have mossy coloring to the body. One has nice coppering at the hackles, the other has very light coppering. ALL together - - - THREE duds for quality breeding !

I have one beautiful colored Black copper marans. All my eggs are riding in her basket ( so to speak) for getting some decent chicks to start my program with. She has smaller statue than the other 3, but my big boy roo should help bulk up her offsprings size.

Geebs could you clarify your earlier statement . . . How will the mossy hens work well with the rooster ?

THANKS everyone for your help - - - and I can now see that Harley does NOT have a squirrel tail. The feathers were so long and curly that I thought that was what I was seeing. It is not about the length or curl of the feathers. The feathers should not cross an imaginary perpendicular line (vertical) with an endpoint on at the base of the tail - - - THE PICTURE helped a LOT - - THANKS.

OK - - - the APA standards - - where do you purchase this at? ? When will the NEW one come out that has the NEW marans standard in it ? ?

I do not think the Marans will be in the revised edition of the SOP, they have not been approved as yet.

That is correct. I am doing the final proof of the revised SOP now and the Marans have not even become a qualified breed yet.....so no they will not be in it.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
So do you even show your Marans? OR are just another one of the hundreds who sell for a buck?
IF you sell, then you can have a say in what someone else does with their birds, IF THEIR SELLING. I don't sell. The cockerel I GAVE to Heather Perkins, I did not bend feathers to get her to pick him over the other three. lololol
Here the APA is trying to have a say. This is a way to meet the standard for the French and still show your bird. And as another said, it is perfectly legal. And nothing you can do about it. What are you goin to do when I show him in Lebanon IN on Oct 16th? Fly in and hound the judge and say he manipulated his tail feathers? lololol I don't think so. Then it comes down to making a bird with better type, feather color, eye color, size, feathered shanks etc. That is what you, as a breeder should focus on, in addition to egg color. The Comb is like worth one point. It is hardly deal breaker for showing.
Your really giving no credit to judges at all. How can one cosmetically manipulate a dog for a show? lololol Fill me in? I always see the judges picking up and holding the dogs when they can. And for certain no Make Up will hide the flaws that make or break a Show Winner.

IF we listen to you and the APA, we will have two entirely different breeds . The French and the APA American. ALL cause of the Tail feather angle. I see it in Uk style Orpingtons and our APA style Orpingtons. Their two totally different breeds now. When one buys a pure UK they have to breed in some APA to show successfully at APA sanctioned events. I personally don't have a problem with this. And see the big picture, which is to get our birds out in the public with great size, proper color and type for those perspective folks who will buy your eggs, & get into Marans.

I don't know where you are getting this info you are posting about the APA, but I doubt that you are even a member of the APA. To begin with: The APA had nothing to do with the proposed Marans tail angle standard. That was submitted by the petitioning club (MCC). I am an APA judge, and APA judges can lose their judging lic for cheating, so it is unlikely any of us would do that. You would just have your entry disqualified. The entry being every bird you entered. If I catch ANYONE cheating I will disqualify all their birds and trust me it would be hard to cheat and fool me or most other judges. While the comb is not a deal breaker during judging it is not just one point.

When people post on here as an authority, they have a duty to be accurate. There are too many newbies here that will take some of this stuff as being accurate. That is a huge disservice to the members here.

Walt Leonard

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Math...try to find it at your local library. Mine has 6 copies of the 2001 edition.

I didn't want to buy one with the 2010 version coming out soon...November? I've heard.

Late November or early Dec.

Walt Leonard

 

[ruth]

You all have to take a look at this E-Bay listing - does the picture of the BCMs look familiar?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...Category=46532&_trkparms=algo=LVI&its=I&otn=2

Someone recognized it and wrote to tell me that the E-Bay seller was using a picture of my birds. I've reported it to E-Bay and contacted the seller and am waiting to hear back from both.

In the meantime, I surely hope it's not someone on BYC.

BUT....take a look at the eggs? I'm sure the photo is also stolen, alterered - OR - look closely. Is it just me or do you see a side seam going down one of the eggs? I really do think these are true chocolate eggs.

 

[lildinkem]

Quote:
So do you even show your Marans? OR are just another one of the hundreds who sell for a buck?
IF you sell, then you can have a say in what someone else does with their birds, IF THEIR SELLING. I don't sell. The cockerel I GAVE to Heather Perkins, I did not bend feathers to get her to pick him over the other three. lololol
Here the APA is trying to have a say. This is a way to meet the standard for the French and still show your bird. And as another said, it is perfectly legal. And nothing you can do about it. What are you goin to do when I show him in Lebanon IN on Oct 16th? Fly in and hound the judge and say he manipulated his tail feathers? lololol I don't think so. Then it comes down to making a bird with better type, feather color, eye color, size, feathered shanks etc. That is what you, as a breeder should focus on, in addition to egg color. The Comb is like worth one point. It is hardly deal breaker for showing.
Your really giving no credit to judges at all. How can one cosmetically manipulate a dog for a show? lololol Fill me in? I always see the judges picking up and holding the dogs when they can. And for certain no Make Up will hide the flaws that make or break a Show Winner.

IF we listen to you and the APA, we will have two entirely different breeds . The French and the APA American. ALL cause of the Tail feather angle. I see it in Uk style Orpingtons and our APA style Orpingtons. Their two totally different breeds now. When one buys a pure UK they have to breed in some APA to show successfully at APA sanctioned events. I personally don't have a problem with this. And see the big picture, which is to get our birds out in the public with great size, proper color and type for those perspective folks who will buy your eggs, & get into Marans.

I don't know where you are getting this info you are posting about the APA, but I doubt that you are even a member of the APA. To begin with: The APA had nothing to do with the proposed Marans tail angle standard. That was submitted by the petitioning club (MCC). I am an APA judge, and APA judges can lose their judging lic for cheating, so it is unlikely any of us would do that. You would just have your entry disqualified. The entry being every bird you entered. If I catch ANYONE cheating I will disqualify all their birds and trust me it would be hard to cheat and fool me or most other judges. While the comb is not a deal breaker during judging it is not just one point.

When people post on here as an authority, they have a duty to be accurate. There are too many newbies here that will take some of this stuff as being accurate. That is a huge disservice to the members here.

Walt Leonard

Walt, the way I read BEV's post #176#, she says the APA is running the terms. Far as tail angle.
That is where I get my info. Right here on this thread.

Far as the rest, that is for you few here to continue to bicker about.





Here is what Bev said:
"Hi Ruth

Thank you for the warm welcome.

To start with, it's a Black Copper. I don't think we need to tag a country name to it. We have tried to write the standard as the French have done but as with every other country the equivalent of the APA requires things written in their terms.


1. the proposed APA standard actually calls for a 45 degree tail angle, not 60. Any tail angle higher than 45 will be considered a defect.
2. The French standard does NOT actually include a DQ for tail angles over 60. The complete DQs in the official French standard read: "
Disqualifying Defects
Lack of size; white or yellow ear-lobes; light-coloured or black eyes; tarsi without feathers, black or yellow; triangular body frame;
horizontal or leaning forward body. Cock weighing less than 3 kg; Hen weighing less than 2.2 kg."

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
So do you even show your Marans? OR are just another one of the hundreds who sell for a buck?
IF you sell, then you can have a say in what someone else does with their birds, IF THEIR SELLING. I don't sell. The cockerel I GAVE to Heather Perkins, I did not bend feathers to get her to pick him over the other three. lololol
Here the APA is trying to have a say. This is a way to meet the standard for the French and still show your bird. And as another said, it is perfectly legal. And nothing you can do about it. What are you goin to do when I show him in Lebanon IN on Oct 16th? Fly in and hound the judge and say he manipulated his tail feathers? lololol I don't think so. Then it comes down to making a bird with better type, feather color, eye color, size, feathered shanks etc. That is what you, as a breeder should focus on, in addition to egg color. The Comb is like worth one point. It is hardly deal breaker for showing.
Your really giving no credit to judges at all. How can one cosmetically manipulate a dog for a show? lololol Fill me in? I always see the judges picking up and holding the dogs when they can. And for certain no Make Up will hide the flaws that make or break a Show Winner.

IF we listen to you and the APA, we will have two entirely different breeds . The French and the APA American. ALL cause of the Tail feather angle. I see it in Uk style Orpingtons and our APA style Orpingtons. Their two totally different breeds now. When one buys a pure UK they have to breed in some APA to show successfully at APA sanctioned events. I personally don't have a problem with this. And see the big picture, which is to get our birds out in the public with great size, proper color and type for those perspective folks who will buy your eggs, & get into Marans.

I don't know where you are getting this info you are posting about the APA, but I doubt that you are even a member of the APA. To begin with: The APA had nothing to do with the proposed Marans tail angle standard. That was submitted by the petitioning club (MCC). I am an APA judge, and APA judges can lose their judging lic for cheating, so it is unlikely any of us would do that. You would just have your entry disqualified. The entry being every bird you entered. If I catch ANYONE cheating I will disqualify all their birds and trust me it would be hard to cheat and fool me or most other judges. While the comb is not a deal breaker during judging it is not just one point.

When people post on here as an authority, they have a duty to be accurate. There are too many newbies here that will take some of this stuff as being accurate. That is a huge disservice to the members here.

Walt Leonard

Thank you, Walt, for that clarification. Too often some people speak as if they are an authority, when in fact it is just their opinion. As you said, there are many newbies here that believe what they read is accurate information.

It simply makes no sense to enter a show with cheating on your agenda. For heavens sake, what do some people think?

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
I don't know where you are getting this info you are posting about the APA, but I doubt that you are even a member of the APA. To begin with: The APA had nothing to do with the proposed Marans tail angle standard. That was submitted by the petitioning club (MCC). I am an APA judge, and APA judges can lose their judging lic for cheating, so it is unlikely any of us would do that. You would just have your entry disqualified. The entry being every bird you entered. If I catch ANYONE cheating I will disqualify all their birds and trust me it would be hard to cheat and fool me or most other judges. While the comb is not a deal breaker during judging it is not just one point.

When people post on here as an authority, they have a duty to be accurate. There are too many newbies here that will take some of this stuff as being accurate. That is a huge disservice to the members here.

Walt Leonard

Walt, the way I read BEV's post #176#, she says the APA is running the terms. Far as tail angle.
That is where I get my info. Right here on this thread.

Far as the rest, that is for you few here to continue to bicker about.





Here is what Bev said:
"Hi Ruth

Thank you for the warm welcome.

To start with, it's a Black Copper. I don't think we need to tag a country name to it. We have tried to write the standard as the French have done but as with every other country the equivalent of the APA requires things written in their terms.


1. the proposed APA standard actually calls for a 45 degree tail angle, not 60. Any tail angle higher than 45 will be considered a defect.
2. The French standard does NOT actually include a DQ for tail angles over 60. The complete DQs in the official French standard read: "
Disqualifying Defects
Lack of size; white or yellow ear-lobes; light-coloured or black eyes; tarsi without feathers, black or yellow; triangular body frame;
horizontal or leaning forward body. Cock weighing less than 3 kg; Hen weighing less than 2.2 kg."

I''m not much into bickering, I'm more of a bottom line, call them as I see them guy.

I am the Chairman of the APA Standard Revision Committee and our input is only to make sure that their Standard description is clear to judges and breeders and that there isn't ranges in the descriptions. Why have a Standard if it can be anything between X and X. The guidance we gave was mostly concerning the format they needed to use, not the description of the Marans. We are not in that business. The input that I did give is, that we would not accept a range of tail angles. They picked 45 degree's not the APA.

Walt Leonard

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
I don't know where you are getting this info you are posting about the APA, but I doubt that you are even a member of the APA. To begin with: The APA had nothing to do with the proposed Marans tail angle standard. That was submitted by the petitioning club (MCC). I am an APA judge, and APA judges can lose their judging lic for cheating, so it is unlikely any of us would do that. You would just have your entry disqualified. The entry being every bird you entered. If I catch ANYONE cheating I will disqualify all their birds and trust me it would be hard to cheat and fool me or most other judges. While the comb is not a deal breaker during judging it is not just one point.

When people post on here as an authority, they have a duty to be accurate. There are too many newbies here that will take some of this stuff as being accurate. That is a huge disservice to the members here.

Walt Leonard

Thank you, Walt, for that clarification. Too often some people speak as if they are an authority, when in fact it is just their opinion. As you said, there are many newbies here that believe what they read is accurate information.

It simply makes no sense to enter a show with cheating on your agenda. For heavens sake, what do some people think?

If you remember when we first met, we had the discussion about experts....all we can ask is that people be careful what kind of hearsay they post. (this is NOT directed at anyone in particular.. These threads on BYC are full of misinformation and none of it seems to be malicious, but it is misleading) Dog people change colors on their animals and all kinds of other things. My wife shows dogs and the groomers can make them look like a different animal. That is not allowed in poultry shows and there are severe penalties for someone caught doing that. I had a guy use a highlighter to color the shanks on his bird. I don't think "dayglow yellow" is an APA recognized leg color. hahaha There will always be people who want to win the easy way, but frankly most of the things you can alter are small points. You can't fake a good body, head, back line etc on a chicken. Just can't be done and that's were all the points are.

Walt Leonard

 

[lildinkem]

Walt, Whatta about the comb? I agree with you, in my no knowledge of poultry Exhibition experience, a lousy comb takes much more away from a bird. NYREDS, who is an APA licensed judge had that discussion on another thread with me about 7 months ago. He insisted it is ONLY worth a point. I asked another judge he said that too, only a point. Who's right? I agree we have to sensor alot on this site. And is why I ask more then just one person.

 

[kathyinmo]

I found (on page 39 of the colored SOP book) the points system for the SOP. "The General Scale of Points." There are 2 sets of points. One is for white and one is for other than white. The ones with * are points for, "other than white." The only difference in these, from the white, is that the shape and color are different points, but the total in that category is the same. The other points (without the *) are the same, white or not. ..... OK, here are the 100 points broken down:

SYMMETRY: 4 (shape)
WEIGHT OR SIZE: 4 (shape)
CONDITION AND VIGOR: 10 (shape)
COMB: 5 (shape)
BEAK: 3 (2 for shape, 1 for color)
SKULL & FACE: 4 (3 for shape, 1 for color)
EYES: 4 (2 for shape, 2 for color)
WATTLES: 2 (shape)
EARLOBES: 4 (2 for shape, 2 for color)
*NECK: 6 (1 for shape, 5 for color)
*BACK: 12 (6 for shape, 6 for color)
*TAIL: 8 (4 for shape, 4 for color)
*WINGS: 8 (3 for shape, 5 for color)
*BREAST: 10 (5 for shape, 5 for color)
*BODY & FLUFF: 8 (5 for shape, 3 for color)
LEGS & TOES: 8 (5 for shape, 3 for color)