Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[ruth]

Quote:

What is feather shafting?

Check out the breast feathers, the red ones in particular. See how the shaft is very visible?

I don't see visible feather shafts. If you mean white fluff at the base of tail or visible white feathers - these roos were still young and had not molted. I have checked both of them recently and neither have any white fluff at base of tails or white undercoats - all solid black. I do have some of the parent stock that have white fluff at base of tails still and they are several years old. They also have white, or very light undercoats. I think I read that indicates the Wheaten that got mixed into this line. I'm not using any of those in my breeder pens.

 

[rockyspringsfarm]

Another genetic question or two in line with the discussion on tails, etc........In many other types of livestock breeding you can offset the negative point of one parent by crossing to another that is strong in the area of the opposing negative....

In regard to high tail sets on these roosters....If one has an excellent bird in every aspect....except the tail set....can you cross that rooster to hens with very good type and reasonably expect to hatch a certain number of chicks....perhaps a male....that will have the correct tail angle ? That "resulting male" chick can then be used to bring the correct point back into the flock....

Many years ago I was told by a very respected livestock breeder that you don't cull an animal on what's wrong with it but rather you keep it for what it might can do for you IF that particular animal/bird is extremely good in one particular area.....and IF you need to strengthen that point in your breeding program. Yes, you will have to cull lots of stuff but IF you get the one that puts in all together then you have achieved your goal and improved the breeding potential of your herd/flock. This type of breeding program is not for everyone.....it takes time and commitment.....there are no quick fixes. The more things you try to correct at one time the less your chance for success in any of them....pick the one, or maybe two, that need the most attention and concentrate on those until you get them where you want them. We have data in cattle and goats as to the "degree" of heritibility for certain factors but do we have that type of info available in poultry other than egg laying ability ?

Another question I have is in regard to the "white fluff" at the base of the tail on lots of Black Copper Roosters. What degree of heritability is associated with this particular thing ? If you keep pullets from a rooster with this fault will they be inclined to pass it to their male chicks ? I learned from a recent Blackdotte post on here...that the hen will pass to her chicks the points on her comb and to breed from hens with 4,5 or 6 points on the comb. I will certainly be looking at my hens and pullets more closely. I think we've all been watching the roosters but maybe not being quite so observant with the hens ? I have a hen with an almost "leghorn" looking comb that is the best layer in the group......how much of a problem if this type of comb ? She does have the correct 5 points.

I have a hands on working knowledge of basic genetics and basic breeding principals but am not by any means an expert on anything..... BUT we've got a couple or three folks on this list that do have some excellent knowledge in the genetics area and I , for one, deeply appreciate their insight.

Thanks for the opinions.

 

[Wynette]

Quote:
Check out the breast feathers, the red ones in particular. See how the shaft is very visible?

I don't see visible feather shafts. If you mean white fluff at the base of tail or visible white feathers - these roos were still young and had not molted. I have checked both of them recently and neither have any white fluff at base of tails or white undercoats - all solid black. I do have some of the parent stock that have white fluff at base of tails still and they are several years old. They also have white, or very light undercoats. I think I read that indicates the Wheaten that got mixed into this line. I'm not using any of those in my breeder pens.

Monique, the W. Jeane (J. Bryant) line most definitely has the Wheaten gene in it, which has been the toughest issue with that line...breeding the wheaten back out. From my conversations with very seasoned breeders, it's extremely difficult to get that wheaten gene out, and that's the gene that causes "mossy" and white fluff. Seems most everyone has it in their flocks to some degree (me included!!)

Some breeders have abandoned that line due to the recessive wheaten and the problems it causes. But - it's also the gene that often produces the very darkest eggs, so.....

What to do?

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:

What is feather shafting?

Sorry this is not a Marans but it will show you exactly what feather shafting is. This is one of my Wellie girls, look at her chest and see that nice bright creamy line going down the middle of the feathers, that is the feather shaft and when some one refers to feather shafting it means that the shaft itself is lighter in color or exemplified in some way and in Marans it should not be there, but can be seen in Marans birds that are overly red in the chest area.

 

[Wynette]

rockysprings - EXCELLENT observations you have, and I tend to breed the way you describe. It does take time & patience, but in the end, I feel like I know my line so much better as a result. I think there is more than one way to get to where you want to be, many folks just immediately cull ANY bird that has a fault they don't like. If you have the room, and can hach oodles of birds, that is probably the very best way to go. For me, with limited space for my birds and smaller flocks, I have to make do with what I have, choose very carefull, keep detailed records, and move on from each breeding to the next, bettering each one as I go.

 

[Wynette]

Quote:

What is feather shafting?

Sorry this is not a Marans but it will show you exactly what feather shafting is. This is one of my Wellie girls, look at her chest and see that nice bright creamy line going down the middle of the feathers, that is the feather shaft and when some one refers to feather shafting it means that the shaft itself is lighter in color or exemplified in some way and in Marans it should not be there, but can be seen in Marans birds that are overly red in the chest area.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/11170_example_of_shafting.jpg

EXCELLENT pic & example - thanks, Pinkseeie! (hmmm...doens't sound as good as "geebsie")

 

[ruth]

Quote:

What is feather shafting?

Sorry this is not a Marans but it will show you exactly what feather shafting is. This is one of my Wellie girls, look at her chest and see that nice bright creamy line going down the middle of the feathers, that is the feather shaft and when some one refers to feather shafting it means that the shaft itself is lighter in color or exemplified in some way and in Marans it should not be there, but can be seen in Marans birds that are overly red in the chest area.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/11170_example_of_shafting.jpg

Cool - thanks so much. I see now. I thought "shafting" meant the quill or base of feather. I do remember Don posting something earlier that said the hackle feathers should be a solid color and not red with black border or black with red border. Which, once again, gives me something else to look for. I'm not sure if the "watch list" will ever end.

 

[Wynette]

Quote:
Sorry this is not a Marans but it will show you exactly what feather shafting is. This is one of my Wellie girls, look at her chest and see that nice bright creamy line going down the middle of the feathers, that is the feather shaft and when some one refers to feather shafting it means that the shaft itself is lighter in color or exemplified in some way and in Marans it should not be there, but can be seen in Marans birds that are overly red in the chest area.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/11170_example_of_shafting.jpg

Cool - thanks so much. I see now. I thought "shafting" meant the quill or base of feather. I do remember Don posting something earlier that said the hackle feathers should be a solid color and not red with black border or black with red border. Which, once again, gives me something else to look for. I'm not sure if the "watch list" will ever end.

I know what you mean, Monique - it can be very frustrating, and we all need to remember that the Marans is a very new breed to the U.S. incomparison to many other breeds. I really feel like the folks in this thread are commited to bettering the breed and, eventually, with all of us working toward the same thing, these discussions will have many less items for our "check lists" that we use when looking over our breed pens!

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
The females look great. The tails appear to be fine. The males seem to carry their tails too high though.

Walt

Thanks Walt - I do have some roos that I worry have the infamous "squirrel" tail but I'm not sure. I've seen people call a tail that stands straight up a squirrel tail (I've got a few of those) but I've also read it's where the tail curls back over the body (like a squirrel, or maybe a Chow)????? Here's a pic of each of those same two roos in profile mode. I call them Jesse and James. Jesse has 5 points and too much red on breast. James has too many points but no red on chest. They were my first two BCM roos, before I bought their parent flock. I thought they had what Little Bear might have called the "just right" tails but I have so much to learn.......

Jesse and James at around 7 months:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x204/chicklady/jesse1-1.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x204/chicklady/james1.jpg

Ruth, Look at the brown breasted male, what color are his legs, from having the brown breast most of the time they are white or very light slate. I have culled all of these light colored Marans from my flock female and male. The other Marans with the white feathers, as long as you use these white feather marans you will have young with white feathers in wing and tail. If you are breeding to the proposed standard do not use these Marans.

The kind of Marans to breed to the Dark female is the heavy colored copper breast but with the Dark legs. Myself I do not use the brown breasted male for breeding. Be very careful of the brown soft feathers and the light legs as they signify that there is some Wheaten blood in the hen house. I just eliminated all the Brown fluff and light legs Marans from my flock. I had already eliminated the white wing and tail males. So I have a very small flock considering all of this.

 

[ruth]

Quote:
I don't see visible feather shafts. If you mean white fluff at the base of tail or visible white feathers - these roos were still young and had not molted. I have checked both of them recently and neither have any white fluff at base of tails or white undercoats - all solid black. I do have some of the parent stock that have white fluff at base of tails still and they are several years old. They also have white, or very light undercoats. I think I read that indicates the Wheaten that got mixed into this line. I'm not using any of those in my breeder pens.

Monique, the W. Jeane (J. Bryant) line most definitely has the Wheaten gene in it, which has been the toughest issue with that line...breeding the wheaten back out. From my conversations with very seasoned breeders, it's extremely difficult to get that wheaten gene out, and that's the gene that causes "mossy" and white fluff. Seems most everyone has it in their flocks to some degree (me included!!)

Some breeders have abandoned that line due to the recessive wheaten and the problems it causes. But - it's also the gene that often produces the very darkest eggs, so.....

What to do?

W. Jeane and J. Bryant who?????

I'm really trying to leave names out of this.

This is my line - the Bethel Line. And, thanks to all the great info on this thread, when the select few go into individual breeding pens this Spring - it will be a new and improved line - the Bethel Line of BCMS.