Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[shesaredroan]

I gotta wonder if doing something just 'good enough' doesn't become habit forming for some people. Just 'good enough' isn't good enough for me.

Well said slick...floppy comb roos would NEVER be allowed to stay in with my girls. My girls only get the best as mates to produce the next generation!!!!

 

[pinkchick]

The lopped comb should have been DQ'd......regardless...it is a General DQ and judges should know this, (just my humble opinion). It is a defect, but one that is specifically called out as a DQ in the SOP. If the bird had extra points on the comb, a twist or thumbmark then I could see deducting points for the defects and advancing the bird based on the point system and the overall severity of the defects and the judge using his or her discretion in placing the bird, but I am having a serious issue with the lopped comb placing.

Lopped Comb- APA SOP
A comb which falls over to one side; a Standard requirement in females of the some single comb breeds, a disqualification in males of the same breeds, also in males and females of other single comb breeds, as well as in all pea comb and rose comb breeds.

General Disqualifications ` APA SOP

Comb:
Single Comb Breeds
1. Lopped below the horizontal plane of the point where the bend occurs in all males and in females except where that lopped comb is an identified breed characteristic.
Note- No single combed female in or near production with slightly lopped comb should be discriminated against.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Quote:

Just good enough isn't necessarily good enough for them either BUT they did take the time to prepare their birds, pack them up and get them to the show. When we're the ones willing to go to the effort of getting out there instead of just sitting in our chairs and commenting, I wonder if we'll be so critical.

(I know for a fact that the folks showing the birds are WELL aware of their flaws and eager to improve but they are out there, making the effort, and got us into the book and they are aware of what it takes to get into the book. I am thankful for their efforts and refuse to minimise their efforts. Very Canadian of me.

)

I must say - I'm disappointed with Marans fanciers in general and how unsupportive and unrealistic they are about how this game works.

 

[Debbi]

I have to say - combs and ear lobes are such a small percentage of the points. At shows, the bulk of points comes from type which is why so many of the breeders I've been consulting have been telling me not to fuss about combs or even leg feathers in the beginning. I have to build the foundation first - TYPE!

Whoa lady! I can almost guess who told you that one! A DQ is a DQ! Disqualifying them from the show ring, so why on earth would you want to breed it forward?? Combs, ear lobes, shank/toe feathering, odd coloring, etc., all add up to...put me in the soup pot! You can have the typiest, beefiest birds out there, but if they have ONE DQ, they are out of the gene pool!! This is why the Carnation and sprig problem, and other problems are perpetuating in this breed!! It won't get better until ALL breeders are truthful and forthright, and willing to CULL! Don, I thought that sounded like you! Welcome back!!!

 

[gilavina]

Just good enough isn't necessarily good enough for them either BUT they did take the time to prepare their birds, pack them up and get them to the show. When we're the ones willing to go to the effort of getting out there instead of just sitting in our chairs and commenting, I wonder if we'll be so critical.

(I know for a fact that the folks showing the birds are WELL aware of their flaws and eager to improve but they are out there, making the effort, and got us into the book and they are aware of what it takes to get into the book. I am thankful for their efforts and refuse to minimise their efforts. Very Canadian of me.

)

I must say - I'm disappointed with Marans fanciers in general and how unsupportive and unrealistic they are about how this game works.

I'm not quite sure who this is aimed at, but all I do know, is this is not a game for me....birds are shown against a standard for a reason and that the truth about how birds stack up against that standard and being thankful for those that are showing at shows I can't get to are not mutually exclusive. I do show in my area as I can get to them.

Its going to be a long road for the Marans and those who breed them being such a new breed here and there will always be disagreements when it comes to things that people are passionate about, but for me it is simple. A person shows at their own risk, and are responsible for gauging their own birds against the standard. If they choose to show, that's fine, but it is the standard that determines where they fall, not the distance they travel or any other factors that determine their placement outside of the standard. It is the bird and the bird itself that determines the placement. good or bad.

 

[Debbi]

Just good enough isn't necessarily good enough for them either BUT they did take the time to prepare their birds, pack them up and get them to the show. When we're the ones willing to go to the effort of getting out there instead of just sitting in our chairs and commenting, I wonder if we'll be so critical.

(I know for a fact that the folks showing the birds are WELL aware of their flaws and eager to improve but they are out there, making the effort, and got us into the book and they are aware of what it takes to get into the book. I am thankful for their efforts and refuse to minimise their efforts. Very Canadian of me.

)

I must say - I'm disappointed with Marans fanciers in general and how unsupportive and unrealistic they are about how this game works.

Barb ~ I think you are missing the point here in general. Support and friendly chatter is a good thing here, and we learn in a kindly way. BUT, the idea is to improve the breed; and smiling faces and kindly words sometimes don't see actually what they have, and pass on false information. There are those who truly want to learn and breed towards the standard (SOP). There are also the ones that breed willy-nilly and sell them as "show birds" because they won at some fair, or in some cases an APA show where the judge knew diddly. Then there are those, who will strive to breed towards the SOP, and won't sell eggs/chicks/adults/projects until they are THERE, or very close to there, and actually care about the betterment of the breed. The latter breeder, and I only include this type as a true "breeder", are few and far between! I don't care how high up they are, or how highly priced their eggs/birds are, if they can't do the RIGHT THING for the breed and the people that want the breed, they are worthless, and even detrimental to the BREED!

 

[math ace]

(I know for a fact that the folks showing the birds are WELL aware of their flaws and eager to improve but they are out there, making the effort, and got us into the book and they are aware of what it takes to get into the book. I am thankful for their efforts and refuse to minimise their efforts. Very Canadian of me.

)

I must say - I'm disappointed with Marans fanciers in general and how unsupportive and unrealistic they are about how this game works.

This is a very interesting attitude. I am not sure if it is supportive to give the stamp of approval on birds that have DQ's. I think there is, as Kim said, a clear distinction between a fault and a DQ. A disqualification is defined by the APA as a term applied to a deformity or a defect. sufficiently SERIOUS to debar a fowl from an award, usually inherited.

I don't think any of us are expecting or demanding that a PERFECT bird be the only ones to win. If a bird wins or places with a DQ, how does that convey a solid message that there is something wrong, something that needs SERIOUS improvement.

I would like to THINK that these judging errors were made by ignorance of the new marans standard, BUT both of these DQ's - flopped comb AND white ear lobes are general DQ's - not specific to the marans.


IF I am not mistaken, the reason the marans were not accepted the first time go around is because there were not enough birds meeting the proposed standard. Pushing to get into the APA book is good only if the marans breeders are ready... If there are enough birds to meet the proposed standard. Supposedly, that was demonstrated a year ago at this very place - - NEWNAN, Ga. So, I was expecting to see those high caliber birds again. One year later, I was not expecting to see two of the three top cocks with DQ's. That would seem a step backwards....

I am not sure that I "understand how the game works". I thought this was about getting it "right", not about "playing".
MANY of us sitting back on the couches are not showing because we don't want to PLAY at this. We want to get it RIGHT.
We want to make sure our flocks are DQ free before we start showing. Wasn't there some affidavit that folks had to sign saying that they had been breeding Marans for years and had marans meeting the proposed standard.

I wouldn't be too hard on those sitting on the couches talking this stuff out. . . . Some folks believe in rushing forward, others believe in moving cautiously.

 

[gilavina]

This is a very interesting attitude. I am not sure if it is supportive to give the stamp of approval on birds that have DQ's. I think there is, as Kim said, a clear distinction between a fault and a DQ. A disqualification is defined by the APA as a term applied to a deformity or a defect. sufficiently SERIOUS to debar a fowl from an award, usually inherited.

I don't think any of us are expecting or demanding that a PERFECT bird be the only ones to win. If a bird wins or places with a DQ, how does that convey a solid message that there is something wrong, something that needs SERIOUS improvement.

I would like to THINK that these judging errors were made by ignorance of the new marans standard, BUT both of these DQ's - flopped comb AND white ear lobes are general DQ's - not specific to the marans.


IF I am not mistaken, the reason the marans were not accepted the first time go around is because there were not enough birds meeting the proposed standard. Pushing to get into the APA book is good only if the marans breeders are ready... If there are enough birds to meet the proposed standard. Supposedly, that was demonstrated a year ago at this very place - - NEWNAN, Ga. So, I was expecting to see those high caliber birds again. One year later, I was not expecting to see two of the three top cocks with DQ's. That would seem a step backwards....

I am not sure that I "understand how the game works". I thought this was about getting it "right", not about "playing".
MANY of us sitting back on the couches are not showing because we don't want to PLAY at this. We want to get it RIGHT.
We want to make sure our flocks are DQ free before we start showing. Wasn't there some affidavit that folks had to sign saying that they had been breeding Marans for years and had marans meeting the proposed standard.

I wouldn't be too hard on those sitting on the couches talking this stuff out. . . . Some folks believe in rushing forward, others believe in moving cautiously.

well said Lisa

 

[Debbi]

well said Lisa

YES! Those of us sitting on the couches are waiting for something actually WORTHY of showing! Just becuase a bird wins, does NOT make it worthy of the breed, or breeding it forward!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BarnGoddess01]

There are those who truly want to learn and breed towards the standard (SOP). There are also the ones that breed willy-nilly and sell them as "show birds" because they won at some fair, or in some cases an APA show where the judge knew diddly.

I'm really NOT trying to stir up trouble (although I clearly HAVE!) but Newnan was a BIG show. Hardly a "fair". Hell, MY birds could win at a "fair" and that is TRULY a scary thought!!!! I'm sure the judge at Newnan wasn't a slouch. I'm not trying to pass judgement on what should be happening - just what IS happening. I don't believe ANY of the folks winning at the big shows are breeding "willy nilly". I truly don't. In fact, I know many of them aren't. They may not be prioritizing things as you or I or some others do but it certainly isn't willy nilly. Heck, "the Standard" for Marans has barely been established. So folks haven't even had that long to breed toward it!!! I stand by my position. I believe we are getting too focused on the small stuff, to the point where we are losing sight of the big picture. But I get it. Clearly, it's just me so we can go back to our regularly scheduled Marans chatter.