maremma sheepdogs

[LotsaChicken]

Quote:
So, if a female is 89 pounds, does that mean it is no longer a true maremma?

I bet it wasn't farmers who need working LGDs in support of their livelihood who wrote those specifications. Sounds as if it were written by dog show people.

Of course not, but as watchdogps said, it's not ideal. In other words you would not want to breed such a dog. Shelters are full of mediocre dogs. If you are going to breed a dog it should meet the standard for the breed and not only that, but it should prove itself to be exceptional and worthy of breeding. Too many dogs are euthanized in shelters every day for people to breed irresponsibly.

 

[LotsaChicken]

Quote:
So, if a female is 89 pounds, does that mean it is no longer a true maremma?

I bet it wasn't farmers who need working LGDs in support of their livelihood who wrote those specifications. Sounds as if it were written by dog show people.

I can't speak for the marema, but the standard is written by whoever creates the breed. In the case of the gsd, it was the Capt. Honestly, size is a huge factor for a working dog. Too small and they won't be effective against predators. Too large and they won't have the stamina and agility to be effective against predators.

We get this all the time in the gsd. People saying that they are breeding "old fashioned" dogs - bigger and heavier. Except that the breed was never meant to be that. They say "oh breeders wrote that standard" and other excuses.

I don't know much about GSDs, but I know there has been alot of controversy regarding working vs show quality. What you are saying is especially relevant to what we are talking about because Maremmas aren't even a widely shown dog. There is no double standard associated with them. Recently, on another message board that is dedicated to Pyrs, a "breeder" asked about having her new litters dew claws removed. This is something that is NEVER done to a Pyr...NEVER, unless there is a health issue, usually caused from people not keeping their pyrs claws trimmed. Pyrs have double dew claws that are standard to the breed. If someone sees a puppy without the double dew claw it is assumed it is a mixed breed. The dew claws not only make big white dogs recognizable as Pyrs, they are also part of the foot structure and you have to cut through bone to remove them in most cases. So, here you have someone breeding dogs who doesn't know anything at all about them. Someone else within the same thread posted that they are breeding their Pyrs to not have double dew claws. They are actually trying to breed the double dew claws out of their dogs. Why breeders feel the need to "improve" on the standard for a breed is beyond me. Noone who is knowledeable about a breed is out looking for puppies who don't look like the breed they are after. These are the puppies, and their offspring, that will end up as shelter dogs. Sad, but true.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

LotsaChicken wrote:
She's not mistaken. At that weight your dogs do not meet the breed standard neither here, nor in Europe:

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/MaremmaSheepdog

http://www.maremmaclub.com/standard.htmlYour males shouldn't be over 100 lbs and your females shouldn't be over 88

"Breed standards" are for SHOW dogs.

I have a 5 generation pedigree on my male from WORKING Italian dogs

Odds are good his bloodline actually goes back before there WERE "breed standards", since your source didn't even recognize them as a breed until 2006.

The Maremma Sheepdog is derived from the ancient shepherd dogs used in the Maremma and Abruzzes regions of Italy. At one time the dogs from these two regions were considered two different breeds, but since about 1860 they have been crossed to the point that they are now recognized as one breed.​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

This is an intersting debate going on.

I agree bigger isn't better, and bigger definately isn't functional. A dog that can kill a wolf has to be very fast. A giant sized dog that lays around most of the time isn't going to be even a close match for a wolf, or worse yet two or three. I wonder if the trend towards larger Maremmas is due to people being more familiar with the larger Pyrs?

 

[dainerra]

there is only 1 GSD standard. The thing with GSDs (and any breed) is that each person is able to interpret that in his own way. Working or show, a dog should fit the breed standard.

From my research, the maremma has the same standard here and in Europe. Again, the standard isn't written by "show" people. It is written by the people who created the breed, just as it is in any breed. The standard is made up of the characteristics that enable a working dog to do it's job. Do some people distort that? Absolutely. Not just show breeders who accentuate certain physical characteristics, but working breeders that breed dogs that are so over-the-top with prey drive that they are basically crazed maniacs. Those are just 2 examples, but just to point out that it can be on both sides.

here is the standard in Italy. Again, written by the people who created the breed. http://www.maremmasheepdogs.net/eng/Maremma%20Sheepdog%20Kennel%20-%20Standard.htm

Height at withers - Males 65 to 73 cm. - Females : 60 to 68 cm.
Weight - Males 35 to 45 kg. - Females - 30 to 40 kg. (upper weight is 99 lbs for male, 88 for female)


It's not an assault on your dogs, which probably do their job very well. The point of the standard is that there must be some type of blueprint. Would a LGD be able to work if it was 175lbs? I have a friend with a 175lb St. Bernard. He would be eaten alive by a wolf because he doesn't have the agility to go against them in a fight.

Jamie, I think it is a "bigger is better" mentality. After all, if a 90lb dog is good to deter predators, of course a bigger would equal stronger, right?

Again, I have working dogs. They fit the exact same breed standard as the show dogs. Do I agree with the way some show breeders interpret that standard? No, but I don't agree with the way some working line breeders do it either. I do know that if we threw the whole thing out the window, there would be even more division. You could pick any dog at random and claim it was a maremma.

 

[TDM]

Quote:
'Farmers don't use LGDs to kill predators, but rather to deter predators. Lazy or not, a wolf will think twice about tangling with a large LGD for a meal.

 

[LotsaChicken]

Quote:
"Breed standards" are for SHOW dogs.

I have a 5 generation pedigree on my male from WORKING Italian dogs

Odds are good his bloodline actually goes back before there WERE "breed standards", since your source didn't even recognize them as a breed until 2006.

The Maremma Sheepdog is derived from the ancient shepherd dogs used in the Maremma and Abruzzes regions of Italy. At one time the dogs from these two regions were considered two different breeds, but since about 1860 they have been crossed to the point that they are now recognized as one breed.
​

I only included the UKC link because more people are familiar with it, but their standard came directly from the ENCI. I'm assuming since you know so much about your dogs you recognized ENCI as setting the standard for the breed. The UKC used the italian registry to set their standard. Here is the link, in it's English version:

http://www.enci.it/razze/maremma/mar2in.html

What registry are your dogs registered with?

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

TDM -- as was talked about in a previous page on this thread -- they were supposed to be able to kill wolves. So I suppose no one here cares much about their original purpose, they are now just deterrents, which is fine. And I guess if you'd like a giant Maremma that is ok as long as no one has the idea that they can fulfill their original role.

 

[TDM]

Quote:
I see you don't have any experience with LGDs, or how they work around livestock. They were also developed to deter bears. They did not kill them, as that would be difficult for any dog to do.

Please visit www.lgd.org. They have some good articles on how LGDs work, and even one how they protect sheep from grizzlys. And no, they don't kill grizzlys either.

 

[LotsaChicken]

Quote:
I see you don't have any experience with LGDs, or how they work around livestock. They were also developed to deter bears. They did not kill them, as that would be difficult for any dog to do.

Please visit www.lgd.org. They have some good articles on how LGDs work, and even one how they protect sheep from grizzlys. And no, they don't kill grizzlys either.

All LGDs are not made the same and most literature say that Maremmas were bred smaller and faster, not only to deter, but to KILL wolves. There are several old paintings and writings, by old I mean hundreds of years old, that depict these dogs being used to kill wolves in hunts, not just while guarding sheep.