maremma sheepdogs

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
I see you don't have any experience with LGDs, or how they work around livestock. They were also developed to deter bears. They did not kill them, as that would be difficult for any dog to do.

Please visit www.lgd.org. They have some good articles on how LGDs work, and even one how they protect sheep from grizzlys. And no, they don't kill grizzlys either.

You have no knowledge on my LDG experience. I was stating the black and white facts of the breed being discussed here, that the Maremma was bred to be able, if needed, to kill wolves. This doesn't, however, tell my scope of knowledge or lack-there-of. It quite simply shows I can read and retain information given to me LOL. Oh and as far as a bear dog goes, if I needed a bear deterrent I would go with a Karelian or a Russo-European Laika, not an LGD.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
I see you don't have any experience with LGDs, or how they work around livestock. They were also developed to deter bears. They did not kill them, as that would be difficult for any dog to do.

Please visit www.lgd.org. They have some good articles on how LGDs work, and even one how they protect sheep from grizzlys. And no, they don't kill grizzlys either.

All LGDs are not made the same and most literature say that Maremmas were bred smaller and faster, not only to deter, but to KILL wolves. There are several old paintings and writings, by old I mean hundreds of years old, that depict these dogs being used to kill wolves in hunts, not just while guarding sheep.

THIS. That is why the standard, as written from the original creators of the breed, calls for a small "light" dog. Honestly, a pack of wolves isn't going to be deterred by a pair of dogs of any size. They would quickly size up a larger, slower dog and just add it to the dinner menu. Just because the dog is no longer needed to kill wolves, doesn't mean that the standard and original purpose don't call for a dog that is physically capable of doing that.

To compare, that would be like saying people don't use GSDs to herd sheep anymore, therefore they don't need that loping trot to run all day with the flock. Or that the Shih Tzu should weigh 70lbs because rich Chinese elite no longer use them as status symbols.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

here is the standard in Italy. Again, written by the people who created the breed. http://www.maremmasheepdogs.net/eng/Mar … andard.htm

Height at withers - Males 65 to 73 cm. - Females : 60 to 68 cm.
Weight - Males 35 to 45 kg. - Females - 30 to 40 kg. (upper weight is 99 lbs for male, 88 for female)


It's not an assault on your dogs, which probably do their job very well. The point of the standard is that there must be some type of blueprint

ALL the "standards" posted have been copies of the original.
They were written by a bunch of rich folks who wanted to show off the dogs, since the breed was "created" a couple of thousand years ago

They are not a "blueprint" for the breed, but merely criteria for judging SHOW DOGS, since it states anything outside those numbers is a "fault"

Breeding dogs for APPEARANCE doesn't "improve the breed" at all.

The Maremma Sheepdog has a solid, muscular build, a thick white coat, a large head and a black nose. According to the breed standard, males should weigh 35 to 45 kilograms (77 to 99 lb) and stand 65 to 73 centimetres (26 to 29 in) at the shoulder, while females weigh 30 to 40 kilograms (66 to 88 lb) and stand 60 to 68 centimetres (24 to 27 in).

Some dogs may be considerably larger. The coat is long and thick; it is rough to the touch, and forms a thick collar around the neck. It should be solid white; some minor yellowing may be tolerated.[4]

Some divide the breed into various subtypes, largely based on small differences in physical attributes and with subtype names based on village and provincial names where the dogs may be found, e.g. the Maremmano, the Marsicano, the Aquilano, the Pescocostanzo, the Maiella, and the Peligno.[5] However, biologists dispute this division, as well as over reliance on minor physical differences, as the dogs were bred over the centuries for their behavioral characteristics as flock guardians.

Here's more proof the standards were ONLY for showing and had nothing to do with the working qualities:

http://www.abruzzese.org/type.htm

The Type Maremmano.

Despite its name, this dog is also a native of Abruzzo, where it probably had its origin.
Not excessively large, this dog is above all, a veritable weapon against predators, yet gentle with people.

Very similar to the Pescocostanzo, this dog was derived from some outstanding specimens that the rich Tuscan landowners brought from the Abruzzo.
In origin, this line was formed from the best of the ‘discarded’ (1) in Abruzzo, with a smaller build and evident ‘stains’ of blond/orange in the hair.

However, the Maremmanis knew how to turn a ‘defect’ into an advantage, and the Abruzzese shepherds, recognizing the best characteristics of this dog, chose to use it to create a new line.

The fascination for the Abruzzesis was such, that they couldn’t relinquish the exemplary qualities of the Abruzzo, remixing the lines to create a dog very similar to the native one.

So, in the first years the 50 standards were conformed and the dogs were called Maremmani-Abruzzesi.

Unfortunately, the majority of those who promoted the drawing up of the standard were not Abruzzesi.
In order not to penalize their own dogs, they defined as the standard, a small dog, with the result that some lines of the dogs present in Abruzzo today are much larger than the standard prescribed.

If you want to parade a dog around a ring, stick to the "standards".

If you want REAL working dogs, you breed those with the best BEHAVIOR and don't worry about how big they are.

There are some good examples of actual working dogs on this site, and a couple of them just happen to be mine:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/maremmasheepdog.htm​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I am all for a real working dog, ie-- a dog that can do its intended work successfully. If the dogs were split into groups and bred for different specified areas of Italy and purpose then it makes sense that the dogs would come in several sizes. Its nice to know that the dogs that were reported to have been able to kill wolves did so well and to know the larger dogs were probably suited for other guardian duties. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[LotsaChicken]

Quote:
ALL the "standards" posted have been copies of the original.
They were written by a bunch of rich folks who wanted to show off the dogs, since the breed was "created" a couple of thousand years ago

They are not a "blueprint" for the breed, but merely criteria for judging SHOW DOGS, since it states anything outside those numbers is a "fault"

Breeding dogs for APPEARANCE doesn't "improve the breed" at all.

The Maremma Sheepdog has a solid, muscular build, a thick white coat, a large head and a black nose. According to the breed standard, males should weigh 35 to 45 kilograms (77 to 99 lb) and stand 65 to 73 centimetres (26 to 29 in) at the shoulder, while females weigh 30 to 40 kilograms (66 to 88 lb) and stand 60 to 68 centimetres (24 to 27 in).

Some dogs may be considerably larger. The coat is long and thick; it is rough to the touch, and forms a thick collar around the neck. It should be solid white; some minor yellowing may be tolerated.[4]

Some divide the breed into various subtypes, largely based on small differences in physical attributes and with subtype names based on village and provincial names where the dogs may be found, e.g. the Maremmano, the Marsicano, the Aquilano, the Pescocostanzo, the Maiella, and the Peligno.[5] However, biologists dispute this division, as well as over reliance on minor physical differences, as the dogs were bred over the centuries for their behavioral characteristics as flock guardians.

Here's more proof the standards were ONLY for showing and had nothing to do with the working qualities:

http://www.abruzzese.org/type.htm

The Type Maremmano.

Despite its name, this dog is also a native of Abruzzo, where it probably had its origin.
Not excessively large, this dog is above all, a veritable weapon against predators, yet gentle with people.

Very similar to the Pescocostanzo, this dog was derived from some outstanding specimens that the rich Tuscan landowners brought from the Abruzzo.
In origin, this line was formed from the best of the ‘discarded’ (1) in Abruzzo, with a smaller build and evident ‘stains’ of blond/orange in the hair.

However, the Maremmanis knew how to turn a ‘defect’ into an advantage, and the Abruzzese shepherds, recognizing the best characteristics of this dog, chose to use it to create a new line.

The fascination for the Abruzzesis was such, that they couldn’t relinquish the exemplary qualities of the Abruzzo, remixing the lines to create a dog very similar to the native one.

So, in the first years the 50 standards were conformed and the dogs were called Maremmani-Abruzzesi.

Unfortunately, the majority of those who promoted the drawing up of the standard were not Abruzzesi.
In order not to penalize their own dogs, they defined as the standard, a small dog, with the result that some lines of the dogs present in Abruzzo today are much larger than the standard prescribed.

If you want to parade a dog around a ring, stick to the "standards".

If you want REAL working dogs, you breed those with the best BEHAVIOR and don't worry about how big they are.

There are some good examples of actual working dogs on this site, and a couple of them just happen to be mine:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/maremmasheepdog.htm​

It's just your opinion that breed standards are only for show dogs. That is just not the truth. Breed standards were set to uphold the integrity of any breed. Most of your quotes are from a breeder's site, which judgeing by the pictures of dogs being shown, I can guarentee you meet the breed standard.

You can see from the pictures of the adult dogs standing near people that they are not huge dogs. As was said earlier in the post, while some dogs may be smaller, or larger, than their breed standard states, it doesn't make them not purebred, it means they aren't suitable to breed. A dog that is TWICE the weight of others in it's breed?...well that can't be good. We aren't talking about an extra few lbs here. Apply that to other breeds. What would you make of a chihuahua being twice the size of other dogs in it's breed? A greyhound?

You're going to feel the way you feel about it, but myself and many others, are going to disagree with you. I feel like it's irresponsible to breed a dog, intentionally, outside of the standard. When people go in search of a dog for any purpose they are looking for dogs that meet the standard of the breed. Good potential owners have done the research and know what they are looking for. In Maremmas it is a smaller, faster dog, just like the standard states and just like you find documented for hundreds of years. They are there to keep Maremmas what they were meant to be and are a good thing. It's just like the breeder I mentioned earlier who is trying to breed the double dew claws out of her pyrs. Standards are there to keep that sort of thing from happening, but alot of people choose to make the argument that standards don't apply to me, or my dogs.​

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Its nice to know that the dogs that were reported to have been able to kill wolves did so well and to know the larger dogs were probably suited for other guardian duties. It makes a lot of sense.

LOL

Why in the world do you think a 130 lb dog can't kill a wolf when a 100 lb dog can?

The can ALL kill wolves, and the "subtypes" are now considered ONE BREED.​

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

A dog that is TWICE the weight of others in it's breed?...well that can't be good. We aren't talking about an extra few lbs here

Who said anything about a 200 lb Maremma?

To say one that doesn't fit the "standards" "isn't fit to breed" is silly since it only matters if you want SHOW dogs.

Humans have increased in average size in the last 100 years, and so have other animals, simply due to better care.

Most of your quotes are from a breeder's site, which judgeing by the pictures of dogs being shown, I can guarentee you meet the breed standard.

That breeder is the one who said the standards were purposely written SMALL.
It was politics, not performance

In order not to penalize their own dogs, they defined as the standard, a small dog, with the result that some lines of the dogs present in Abruzzo today are much larger than the standard prescribed.

You can't judge a Maremma's weight by looking at a picture, since his dogs are the same size as mine, and "not fit to breed" according to you

When people go in search of a dog for any purpose they are looking for dogs that meet the standard of the breed.

Most are looking for a REAL working LGD, and not some "perfect" animal that conforms to some set of rules.

Look at how many brag about the traits of their mixed breed mutts, and how great they are.​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
LOL

Why in the world do you think a 130 lb dog can't kill a wolf when a 100 lb dog can?

The can ALL kill wolves, and the "subtypes" are now considered ONE BREED.

I'm answering your question you asked not to argue with you, but really to answer what you said. A smaller, more agile dog, used to more movement is going to be a better match for a wolf than a huge 130lb dog that isn't in as good of shape because it lays around most of the day or stands around, just watching. I was cosidering, also, that the dogs in Italy were travelling with the livestock, not just penned in pastures. That makes for a more fit animal than the LDG's here in the US that keep watch but do not do a lot of hard exercise. Does that make sense?

 

[carolinagirl58]

I am not so sure the adult size of a dog determined how effective it is against wolves. Anatolian Shepherds and Great Pyrs are commonly 140 pounds and they are VERY effective against wolves. Smaller does not necessarily mean better at wolf-killing. The Turkish shepherd dogs (genetics from which Anatolians were bred) spend a LOT of time laying around. they move with the flock and lay around some more. But when trouble shows up.....they turn on and can run down wolves and kill them. These dogs have been programmed for centuries to be like this. Laying around in a pasture most of the time does not mean they can't be effective against predators. It's how they were designed.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I hear what you're saying Carolinagirl, however the build of the dog has a lot to do with it too. An Irish Wolfhoud can easily be 160+ pounds, and were bred for wolf hunting, but their body type and conditioning has everything to do with their performance. I have no doubt that these dogs can deter a wolf, but fight off several wolves (they usually come in pairs to packs) and kill them I'd have to see it for myself. A Pyr that is left sitting in a several acre field isn't as fit as a dog that follows flocks over rough terrain. That really is my point. A good deterrent is what most people want, and hopefully that is what they get in their LDG.

A --relatively-- smaller LGD might have a better chance over a giant one due to agility. Many dog breeds have sacrificed agility for power. The best bear dogs in the world are effective at fighing off bears and are only about 55-65 pounds, the larger anomlalies in the breed aren't suited for bear work and are not used in large game hunting or habituated bear work.